unfortunately named persons and teams

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Vogue
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Re: unfortunately named persons and teams

Post by Vogue »

I don't know about you guys, but I'm drunk as hell.

PS: In other news, Swag spamming the forums again.

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Re: unfortunately named persons and teams

Post by Vogue »

Durf wrote:I'm not sure if either of those are "races".....
Yeah because nazis are totally a race, right...............

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Clutch
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Re: unfortunately named persons and teams

Post by Clutch »

Durf wrote:
I think your misunderstanding is that the two different meanings neutralize one another instead of being both valid in their respective environment.
I'm actually glad you said this. You realize then that it's just a character (a letter) up for the interpretation of others.
I wouldn't be entitled to force my interpretation upon the people who have suffered under it and claim that swastikas are just religious geometric shapes in my culture and therefore harmless.
Likewise, you are not entitled to ban it for your interpretations either. As banning it in itself could be offending to those who consider it to be religious.

There's 2 sides to every coin, so saying "only heads is allowed, no tails" is clearing choosing a side, choosing a bias.
My overall point was to eliminate bias (the basis for assumptions and prejudice). Without bias, you can see words (and symbols) for their true meanings, and not any bad associations.
[email protected]'s @ good [email protected] for once. Yes, I'd consider to @bolish "A" if the new [email protected] is @ble to [email protected] the old one.
...please...it's a letter. Any perception of a meaning "surpassing" an older meaning is relative.
Like I mentioned before, the Nazis purposely spread the propaganda (adopting the symbol as their own).
Whereas its TRUE meaning, is much like a letter of the alphabet, it serves a purpose and should exist.

I'd be saying the same thing to you about the letter A. It's not the letter's fault that the USA would decide to do those things. And while the letter may have a certain context in a war, it would carry less meaning when in that context as time progresses. Much like the swastika, more and more people are not becoming offended by it because we as a people grow out of things. Including bad habits like holding onto prejudice (against a symbol no less)

It doesn't have to offend you if you don't want it to.
Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree or something. I feel as though this got cyclical a few posts back. :|
No hard feelings though, you're entitled to your beliefs. :wink:
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aP|Nelg
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Re: unfortunately named persons and teams

Post by aP|Nelg »

Vogue wrote:I don't know about you guys, but I'm drunk as hell.

PS: In other news, Swag spamming the forums again.
THATS why you pretended to be in Xt...
Sorry I aready made a post about you being a faker

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Re: unfortunately named persons and teams

Post by Vogue »

aP|Nelg wrote:
Vogue wrote:I don't know about you guys, but I'm drunk as hell.

PS: In other news, Swag spamming the forums again.
THATS why you pretended to be in Xt...
Sorry I aready made a post about you being a faker
1) What does this have to do with swag spamming the forums? 2) I'd like some proof, screenshots of me being logged in with the Xt| tags.

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Re: unfortunately named persons and teams

Post by Durf »

Vogue wrote:
Durf wrote:I'm not sure if either of those are "races".....
Yeah because nazis are totally a race, right...............
Actually yes, Nazis would be considered a race.......What did you think "master race" implied? The belief that they aren't a race is ignorant.

Also screen shots wouldn't be necessary, assuming the occurrence happened on his server, there would be logs.
Furthermore, any consequences as a result of "you pretending to be in Xt" are solely confined to the Xt forums and servers (and clan). The need to demand proof isn't as relevant as demanding proof for accusations that would get you banned from, say, these forums. (Not that you aren't allowed to question it, but you're doing it on the wrong forums.)

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Tank Program
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Re: unfortunately named persons and teams

Post by Tank Program »

I'm going to have to say that we don't continue with the hypothetical you would be put to death situations.

I think that the point with "Nazism", "Hitler", and "swastika", etc., is that while it may be possible that out there someone has a different interpretation of the meaning of the words and associated symbols, we still have to be aware of the negative connotations they definitely are associated with for a lot of people and take that into consideration when moderating. If someone feels that an unfair action has been taken against them for calling themselves, for example, a Nazi, they're welcome to protest it. However, given our backgrounds and the associated meaning we have as a result, we're likely to see the worst by default and act accordingly. The majority of us (and certainly Lucifer, Z-Man, and myself) being North American or European after all.
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Re: unfortunately named persons and teams

Post by takburger »

Durf wrote: Technically speaking, any country can do what they want with their own people.
That is so wrong. FYI there is something called international law, and also international court which take care of such issue.

Oh and btw, do you remember Nuremberg?
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Re: unfortunately named persons and teams

Post by dinobro »

Durf wrote:Actually yes, Nazis would be considered a race.......What did you think "master race" implied? The belief that they aren't a race is ignorant.
I am sorry Durf, but it's gettin so ridiculous. You browse wikipedia, see one term like "cultural affilation" and you jump to a conclusion that a follower of nazi ideology is other race than a freaking liberal...
HEY FILTHY REPUBLICANS, I AM DEMOCRAT SO IM SOMEONE OF ANOTHER RACE. CHECK MATE. But wait, what if I turn into a republican? Do I change my race?

"Master race" was implied at ARYAN race - the descendants of WEST EUROPEAN ancestry. An "ideal" example of a human... not someone who FOLLOWS AN IDEOLOGY.
I'm sorry if i get a bit personal, but Durf, I swear to god... You're one of the most dense people I have had "pleasure" of dealing with. You try so hard to be smart but you fail with each sentence. Please stop arguing with people that are obviously LESS incapable than you in understanding some simple terms. God, people, you read it and you don't tell him to shut up?
HE'S SAYING THAT SOMEONE WHO FOLLOW SOME IDEOLOGY TURNS INTO ANOTHER RACE, PLEASE TELL ME IM JUST DREAMING AND HE'S NOT REALLY THAT STUPID.

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aP|Nelg
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Re: unfortunately named persons and teams

Post by aP|Nelg »

dinobro wrote:
Durf wrote:Actually yes, Nazis would be considered a race.......What did you think "master race" implied? The belief that they aren't a race is ignorant.
I am sorry Durf, but it's gettin so ridiculous. You browse wikipedia, see one term like "cultural affilation" and you jump to a conclusion that a follower of nazi ideology is other race than a freaking liberal...
HEY FILTHY REPUBLICANS, I AM DEMOCRAT SO IM SOMEONE OF ANOTHER RACE. CHECK MATE. But wait, what if I turn into a republican? Do I change my race?

"Master race" was implied at ARYAN race - the descendants of WEST EUROPEAN ancestry. An "ideal" example of a human... not someone who FOLLOWS AN IDEOLOGY.
I'm sorry if i get a bit personal, but Durf, I swear to god... You're one of the most dense people I have had "pleasure" of dealing with. You try so hard to be smart but you fail with each sentence. Please stop arguing with people that are obviously LESS incapable than you in understanding some simple terms. God, people, you read it and you don't tell him to shut up?
HE'S SAYING THAT SOMEONE WHO FOLLOW SOME IDEOLOGY TURNS INTO ANOTHER RACE, PLEASE TELL ME IM JUST DREAMING AND HE'S NOT REALLY THAT STUPID.
Sorry I can't understand what you're saying over all that rage...

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Lucifer
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Re: unfortunately named persons and teams

Post by Lucifer »

Durf wrote: What I was getting at was that you have no actual proof that I even have Asperger's syndrome. For all you know that's just something I said.
Durf wrote: I first suggest you really think about why you're using a fake name (i.e. not representing yourself as people know you) to be sure.
Aren't we supposed to be able to trust that people represent themselves here as they are IRL?

Which is quite related to a team named N4zi. Now, if it were purely an American issue, there'd be no legal justification for sanctioning them because we have a Nazi political party in America (and, unfortunately, it's active throughout Europe, whether legal or not).

Edit: Nevertheless, there's not many competitive organizations in the country the would accept a team called N4zis. None of the pro leagues, none of the school leagues, none of the independent leagues...

However, this is an international community, and in many situations, that means we really *do* have to go to the lowest common denominator, legally.

So, if it can be shown (and I think it can, that's why I'm just jumping to the end) that creating a team named N4zis and heading with a guy named Hitler is hate speech, then there doesn't even need to be a rule to support not letting them play in the Ladle. But that discussion is in another thread, since the threads were split.

So I take it *this* discussion is about community standards, and I think it quite reasonable that we have, as a community standard, the convention that Nazis don't play here. I'm sure I can do a search through forum posts and find other places this has been discussed, so it really should be a non-issue at this point.

And, heh, there's no amount of Durf's word-lawyering that can change that. ;)
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Re: unfortunately named persons and teams

Post by Durf »

@Tank Program:
I agree with you. In fact I understand perfectly fine.
I was only ever pointing out a few things:
1) there are other people with other cultures, so banning a part of their culture because of another is a little unfair. My example was "The Swastikas". It needn't be affiliated with Nazism and it's insulting to other religions when people make that assumption. (literally not any better than allowing "N4zi" to offend some Americans)
2) This communities bias. If you want the community to grow, you should be more accepting of other people. Unless your intention is to fill this community with people exactly like you (Z-Man, Lucifer, and yourself), then the rules should be more accepting of others (not that being offensive is okay, but sometimes something isn't offensive and people only want to think it is)
3) I don't condone hate speech or offensive material of any transgression. But it's not like this community has an environment of acceptance. Just take a look back in this thread and see the hostility and attacks (literally for no reason). What I'm trying to do is get people into kinder territory, and that will include sacrificing any "privilege" (as Lucifer would put it) to enforce your personal ideals.

Think about all the movies released relating to Nazis...similar to the events of 9/11, some things are just 'too soon' to be released into the public.
YEARS have passed, and there's plenty of media for Nazis and 9/11 (even JOKES are being made).
These are signs that the world has grown since (figurative maturity).
Our community shouldn't be left behind.


@takburger:
If you're going to pick out little details of what I say, the least you can do is show how it fails its context.
International law is there for international crime (basically human rights - the Geneva convention). But this doesn't stop any country from doing as they please with their own population (example: China's population control). You can argue that they had their right to have female children taken away from them (it's at least highly discouraged - how's that for sexism) but the fact remains that the governing body must make decisions for the overall good of the country. A single country won't care about what the UN thinks; they will do what they want. Unless another country is willing to stick their nose in someone else's business and start an international war (*cough* USA *cough*)...there isn't much of anything any other country can do to dictate how another country handles it's population. (that's the job of the entire UN - which also starts wars, dictators don't want to give up their position of authority. Gee I wonder why.)

So, technically speaking, it is very possible for any governing body to do as they please with their population. Most of what is stopping any country from doing the same things as Germany did is the threat of war.


@dinobro:
Whether you like it or not, that is basically what defines a race of people. Consider how insulting it would be for a people of one race to be frivolously grouped in with another race... One example is the belief that Canadians are just Americans, when it is clear that Canadians DO NOT want to be associated with American culture in ANY WAY. And there are plenty of Americans that pose as Canadians when travelling internationally (gee I wonder why >_>).

I didn't say that Nazis were a culture simply for following an ideology..Though that would classify them as a race. I mean seriously...did you think Germany was only filled with Nazis? There are multiple races PER country.
One example would be the Nazi's in the USA (clearly, Americans such as yourselves have an issue with Nazism - but they don't, they embrace it, albeit their version is very different - very white supremacist)

To be clear, Vogue was questioning whether or not Nazis were even a race. Me saying "what did you think "master race" implied?" was only to show the level of ignorance being shown by Vogue.

You comparing Nazism to Liberalism is ignorant. (see here) Not to mention, irrelevant to what was being discussed.


@Lucifer, you can trust what you want. Others shouldn't be limited to such blind assumptions.
Also don't you have it backwards? The US government ALLOWS Nazism as a political view within it's population. Justification for it isn't required. "Freedom". People have the freedom to be what they want in the US (sorta), that being said you have every right to be completely bias and racist against Nazis. Though, as was mentioned, we're international. Which means blatant racism against Nazis is still racism. No matter which way you slice it; it is discrimination against a race.
Nevertheless, there's not many competitive organizations in the country the would accept a team called N4zis. None of the pro leagues, none of the school leagues, none of the independent leagues...
This is precisely why I even offered an example of such a ruling that would disallow the name. A short attention span might make you think I'm in support of Nazism. However, this was only ever about the team name and the freedom to call yourself what you want (given there was NO RULES at the time).
creating a team named N4zis and heading with a guy named Hitler is hate speech
No, you can't prove it. It's just a name. Even the "IkilledJew" guy, is technically NOT hate. It is in reference to the Nazi political view and history. NONE of it is targeting anyone of any race for any reason. It's like reenactment of the civil war, just because you wear a south uniform, doesn't mean you support their ideals (same for north). It's for historical reference only. Yet, one very chauvinistic person could see a uniform that disagrees with their personal ideals, and react poorly as a result. Does that make him right? Not at all, it makes him both ignorant and a nuisance.
the convention that Nazis don't play here
This is clear prejudice. You should be more accepting of people and their beliefs if you intend for this community to do any growing.
Most of my recent posts have been about acceptance. Yet even discussion that's remotely close to accepting people that don't conform to YOUR ideals have been met with hostility. What does that say about this community? I'll say it again, it's being just as bad as the "Nazis" you're condemning to be so discriminatory against a person for what they are and what they believe. (Note, I'm not condoning hate speech or any other transgressions. That includes the blatant racism shown against Nazis)
Durf's word-lawyering
Google Dictionary wrote:Lawyering: the work of practicing law.
At least someone is doing it. The fact that it has to be me says a lot about the current moderators.

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Lucifer
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Re: unfortunately named persons and teams

Post by Lucifer »

Durf wrote:
the convention that Nazis don't play here
This is clear prejudice. You should be more accepting of people and their beliefs if you intend for this community to do any growing.
I'm just floored. You do read what you write before posting, right?
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Re: unfortunately named persons and teams

Post by wap »

Durf is trolling.

brb changing my race by following another ideology

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Re: unfortunately named persons and teams

Post by Durf »

@Lucifer, sorry, should I have said "discrimination"? The fact of the matter is there might as well be Nazis playing tron. And they can enjoy the game just like anyone else.
The only thing stopping them is blatant hate from people like you. Too narrow minded to enjoy existence with people different from you.
The difference is that even if (assuming there are) Nazis in this game, they aren't hating on you or your beliefs. So why are you hating on them? Your own prejudice, that's why.

You can't argue that I should be accepting of your belief to abolish Nazism - that's against your own beliefs. Being a racist. Frankly if I supported your case and agreed that they aren't allowed to represent themselves, I should expect to be banned for "being a racist ass".
Now what's your excuse? Are you above the rules? Oh that's right, you only ever get a 30min ban for actually breaking the rules, while I get a full day ban for not breaking any. >_>





@wap:
Google Dictionary wrote:Troll (informal): make a deliberately offensive or provocative online posting with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.
-fish by trailing a baited line along behind a boat.
-sing (something) in a happy and carefree way.
-walk; stroll. (British)
I don't troll. (first definition - the informal one) Pure and simple. Like I say to many others, not everyone has to be like you.
Just because you have within yourself the capability, and sometimes exercise the ability to troll, doesn't mean that others are the same. Statistically speaking, there are bound to be a variety of people ranging from complete trolls to completely serious players. Again, not everyone is like you.
Prejudice, more and more. Preconceptions of what you believe people are and treating them poorly for it. This is exactly what I'm trying to stop...and you call that trolling? Shame on you.

And yes wap, if you truly changed ideology, your entire life begins to change and you live your life differently.
Race is not limited to physical attributes. If it was, then the word "race" wouldn't exist, since "species" and "breed" would suffice.
Although, no, I don't imagine "changing races" is easy enough to do so frivolously as you described.

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