unfortunately named persons and teams

A place for threads related to tournaments and the like, and things related too.

Moderator: Light

Locked
Word
Reverse Adjust Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 4168
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:13 pm

unfortunately named persons and teams

Post by Word »

Perhaps I should clarify: I don't think a team whose players identify themselves as Nazis, mass murderers and anti-Semites (without exception) should be allowed to play. Even if they do it just for the sake of breaking a taboo and in order to provoke a reaction like mine, or sheer ignorance. If it's supposed to be satire I didn't get it. They obviously want to find out how far they can go. The ladle shouldn't become another stage for the irreverence and ignorance of that generation.

(Disclaimer: I used the alias JackTheRipper for some time)

Edit: Split from http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 60&t=23945 for discussion about naming, etc.
Last edited by Tank Program on Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Topic split

User avatar
Lucifer
Project Developer & Local Moonshiner
Posts: 8610
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:32 pm
Location: Republic of Texas
Contact:

Re: xX_Hitl3r_Xx editing other teams roster on wiki

Post by Lucifer »

Word wrote:Perhaps I should clarify: I don't think a team whose players identify themselves as Nazis, mass murderers and anti-Semites (without exception) should be allowed to play. Even if they do it just for the sake of breaking a taboo and in order to provoke a reaction like mine, or sheer ignorance, they obviously want to find out how far they can go.
QFT
(Disclaimer: I used the alias JackTheRipper for some time)
[/quote]

Considering everything surrounding Jack The Ripper, I don't see a comparison. There isn't even evidence to link the few killings that actually happened to one person.

Might as well be Billy the Kid (a bit of a folk hero).
Image

Be the devil's own, Lucifer's my name.
- Iron Maiden

Durf
Match Winner
Posts: 426
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:35 pm

Re: xX_Hitl3r_Xx editing other teams roster on wiki

Post by Durf »

If you are about to enforce some kind of "family friendly" rule for the children (~8 years old), then much more discretion and, if needed, censorship would be required.

If it's not about that, then I'd say let them be called whatever they want.
You could be offended by bears for all anyone knows (like you experienced a bear attack).
Yet many sports team names specifically choose predatory animals for a reason: competition.
There's a fine line between upholding what's right, and complaining too much.

As we all know, Armagetron isn't as simple as it looks and there is a psychological component to how people play (making it possible to psyche someone out)
So the choice of team name is an important aspect when entering into a competition.
Just consider how playing against them would change how you play; perhaps that was intentional, but no need for you to be mad about it. Being aware of it will keep you from getting psyched out by it.


Things are not always as they seem.
"Nazi" and "nazism" isn't necessarily responsible for many of the atrocities committed during a world war.
Their motivation doesn't have to be provocation but just expressing their own curiosities.
What "Nazi" stands for doesn't have anything to do with it.
After all, the only reason why they used the swastika was because it was considered to be good luck.
(it is a symbol for auspiciousness: meaning 1: showing or suggesting that future success is likely. Propitious 2: Attended by good fortune. Prosperous.)
Yet we do not condemn the associated cultures (Buddhism and Hinduism for example) for their creation of the symbol.
Likewise, I think it's wrong to condemn an Armagetron ladle team for using a Nazi-like name.



So going back to rules then, this is an example of team name limitations by the organization WAKA:
http://www.kickball.com/registrationfaq#240 wrote:What is WAKA's policy on Team names?

WAKA team names may not contain reference or implication to political agenda, issue, candidates, elected officials, religion, or overt alcohol, drug, or sexual reference. WAKA retains the right to reject team names for any reason.
Nazi = political party.


I believe the key to solving issues with team names depends on the existence on a clearly structured policy.
Limitations on what is permitted for team names.
(notice the last line too; protection against any loopholes one might find)

But overall, I say give anyone the freedom to name the team as they wish (for the sake of competition) with some obvious exceptions (like in the policy above)




. . . . .

Not sure what to make of the rule-breaking; not sure I have a say in the matter either.
But if they put together a team, isn't that a good thing?
Wasn't that the basis for Vogue's appeal? (to have more teams, even if Vogue is known for trolling)
And we're about to punish this guy for the same thing? (idk what happened tbh, but there's a new team)
But what proof is there that it is one person? (not saying there isn't, but you can require the team to show up on a certain server by a certain date for a test game - to prove they are a real team, if absolutely needed)

IMO, if everyone in ladle we're required to have a global ID to participate, that might make things easier:
(and a script could moderate the tournament; allowing certain global IDs to log in for their designated matches. Automation > moderation.)

User avatar
Lucifer
Project Developer & Local Moonshiner
Posts: 8610
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:32 pm
Location: Republic of Texas
Contact:

Re: xX_Hitl3r_Xx editing other teams roster on wiki

Post by Lucifer »

When bears commit genocide, I think we'll gladly ban the name.

I don't think you fully understand exactly what "Nazi" means. For 99.99999% of the western population, Nazi means "genocidal lunatics", and your flagbearer here bears that out.

Is this the side you want to be on? You really want to argue in favor of killing people? Keeping in mind that the Nazis would have slaughtered YOU on the spot. You live now because we are not Nazis. We don't kill Asperger's people. But Hitler would have, in a heartbeat.

Do you know what a Nazi is? Like, what it really is?

You're not part of the master race.
Image

Be the devil's own, Lucifer's my name.
- Iron Maiden

Word
Reverse Adjust Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 4168
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:13 pm

Re: xX_Hitl3r_Xx editing other teams roster on wiki

Post by Word »

Lucifer wrote:There isn't even evidence to link the few killings that actually happened to one person.
Right...now that we have Durf's reply, I should add that my image of Jack the Ripper was a romaticized one at the time - as if those murders never happened and he was just a fictional Sherlock Holmes villain who teased the gullible police. :)
Maybe World War II is for Durf and this team here what Jack the Ripper was for me*, seeing he just cares about the symbols and names, not the implication coming along with those - that they don't give a damn about the innocent victims)? Nobody in this topic condemns religions for their symbols and names, but in this case the association isn't religious. What do you make of someone named iKilledJew? Is that the kind of people you want to be around with?

*(I hope that's not a counterproductive thing to say, since I still think this team shouldn't take part and Durf is horribly off here)
Last edited by Word on Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Lucifer
Project Developer & Local Moonshiner
Posts: 8610
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:32 pm
Location: Republic of Texas
Contact:

Re: xX_Hitl3r_Xx editing other teams roster on wiki

Post by Lucifer »

Word, I may not have much influence on the Ladle, but for once, we agree on *something*.
Image

Be the devil's own, Lucifer's my name.
- Iron Maiden

Word
Reverse Adjust Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 4168
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:13 pm

Re: xX_Hitl3r_Xx editing other teams roster on wiki

Post by Word »

Lucifer wrote:Word, I may not have much influence on the Ladle, but for once, we agree on *something*.
I'll bear that in mind next time I switch to Catholic chauvinist pig... :wink:

User avatar
Lucifer
Project Developer & Local Moonshiner
Posts: 8610
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:32 pm
Location: Republic of Texas
Contact:

Re: xX_Hitl3r_Xx editing other teams roster on wiki

Post by Lucifer »

Word wrote:
Lucifer wrote:Word, I may not have much influence on the Ladle, but for once, we agree on *something*.
I'll bear that in mind next time I switch to Catholic chauvinist pig... :wink:
No, we already have one Luke-jr. Please don't....
Image

Be the devil's own, Lucifer's my name.
- Iron Maiden

User avatar
Tank Program
Forum & Project Admin, PhD
Posts: 6704
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:03 pm

Re: xX_Hitl3r_Xx editing other teams roster on wiki

Post by Tank Program »

Durf wrote:If you are about to enforce some kind of "family friendly" rule for the children (~8 years old), then much more discretion and, if needed, censorship would be required.
It's never been about completely enforcing family friendly, but about a somewhat idealized standard of communication where we are all passingly polite.

I've previously warned xX_Hitl3r_Xx about the account name. It's been renamed now (FluffyBunnyRabbits). Future accounts will be deleted on sight.
Image

Durf
Match Winner
Posts: 426
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:35 pm

Re: xX_Hitl3r_Xx editing other teams roster on wiki

Post by Durf »

Lucifer wrote:When bears commit genocide, I think we'll gladly ban the name.

I don't think you fully understand exactly what "Nazi" means. For 99.99999% of the western population, Nazi means "genocidal lunatics", and your flagbearer here bears that out.

Is this the side you want to be on? You really want to argue in favor of killing people? Keeping in mind that the Nazis would have slaughtered YOU on the spot. You live now because we are not Nazis. We don't kill Asperger's people. But Hitler would have, in a heartbeat.

Do you know what a Nazi is? Like, what it really is?

You're not part of the master race.
Would the team name "The Genocide Crew" be any more acceptable?
Might as well ban "The Exterminators" too.

The losers of wars are never portrayed in a good light in history. That being said, what you are referring to is propaganda. The purpose of Nazism was that it was for the betterment of their own nation. The decisions of the political leader at the time don't have to tarnish what Nazism is about.
That being said, Nazism itself is a point of view (out of many) and yes, it specifically focuses on discriminating by race (racism by its definition). However, just because those people have a different outlook than you do, that's no reason for you to condemn them for it. (Nazi in USA *edit* fixed link)

That's the only point I was trying to make. I have not said any indication of my opinion regarding the view point itself. Only the emphasis for us all to be more tolerant.


As for your claims of Nazis would have slaughtered me on the spot, how would you know?
Only because I've given an insignificant piece of information ("Asperger's people" as you would call it).
You, in fact, know nothing about me until you can prove it. (Meaning you can't say for certain that I possess characteristics that would have been selected for segregation or death.)

Claiming I'm not part of a (or THE as you put it) "master race" is prejudice.

Furthermore, do you know what is meant by "master race"? That was more or less a goal to achieve.
The propaganda in the war might have changed that meaning to refer to a specific race at the time.
And to be fair, they were one of the few races to even try something like that. At least they tried to improve themselves...How many races can say that today? (Not supporting or condoning the actions taken by a political leader in a war.)



That being said. this thread isn't about Nazis and neither is it about my stance on political beliefs.
So Lucifer, why did you start harassing me? Asking me what side I want to be on, seemingly deliberately misconstruing my words to publicly besmirch me by implying I've stated a view point on Nazism, and further personal attacks.
None of it is appreciated, and I ask you to stop coming after me just because you're angry and/or hate me. If it is for another reason, leave your anger/hate behind.



Lastly, If you would really ban "Bears" (and assuming you would also ban "Bear") then that limits the options available for team names. An example might be "The Ring bearers" or "The Right to Bear Arms". It has the word bears in it. Is it so bad that you would limit the vocabulary of the players? Limit their creative expression? As I said before, just because they are named Nazi (n4zi to be specific), doesn't mean they uphold or condone the beliefs of Nazism. And even if they did, why prevent them from representing themselves as they want to be represented?
Like I said in my first post: There's a fine line between upholding what's right, and complaining too much.

Once again, to be clear and to make sure you understood this time:
I have not said any indication of my opinion regarding the view point of Nazism itself. Only the emphasis for us all to be more tolerant towards each other; allowing us all to express ourselves better and more comfortably. An atmosphere of acceptance is the goal (as clearly there is none atm).

Was reminded of this:
Image



@word,
The association is religious. It's a symbol like a word is a word. It in itself, the swastika, is just lines. What people react to are the preconceptions of what it means; basically the delusions people maintain from the propaganda of war. Like I said, there's a reason why the Nazis chose the symbol in the first place. That very should be what people harbor on the inside regarding the symbol. Not the bad decisions made in historical events, but the meaning of the symbol itself. After all, if a four leaf clover was really lucky (authentically, literally, absolutely in reality brought you good luck) and Nazi Germany from 1930s-1940s used such clovers to do what they did, and spread a ton of propaganda like slapping it on a flag (adopt as a logo).. would you avoid a genuine good luck charm? You would deny yourself access to something that grows in the ground (analogous to a symbol's invention - easy and numerous) and produces actual good luck?
The point isn't about my viewpoints on anything but the freedom to express ourselves, and the overall tolerance we show each other.

What if he did kill a Jew? So what.. Whether or not it is true, you're still just playing a game.



Also wasn't this topic about rules of some kind? Did no one like the example of a clearly laid out structure? One of which abolishes the use of political references, issues, etc... so basically that would cover this instance since Nazi is a political viewpoint.
Or did you both simply want to antagonize >_>
Don't poke the bear, he might commit genocide

User avatar
Tank Program
Forum & Project Admin, PhD
Posts: 6704
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:03 pm

Re: xX_Hitl3r_Xx editing other teams roster on wiki

Post by Tank Program »

To argue for freedom of expression using Nazism as an example is so tragically ironic. I can't even...
Image

User avatar
Lucifer
Project Developer & Local Moonshiner
Posts: 8610
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:32 pm
Location: Republic of Texas
Contact:

Re: xX_Hitl3r_Xx editing other teams roster on wiki

Post by Lucifer »

Durf wrote: The losers of wars are never portrayed in a good light in history. That being said, what you are referring to is propaganda. The purpose of Nazism was that it was for the betterment of their own nation. The decisions of the political leader at the time don't have to tarnish what Nazism is about.
That being said, Nazism itself is a point of view (out of many) and yes, it specifically focuses on discriminating by race (racism by its definition). However, just because those people have a different outlook than you do, that's no reason for you to condemn them for it. (Nazi in USA *edit* fixed link)
A pointless discussion. The "losers" of that war happened to have exterminated upwards of 10 million people, only 6 million of which were jewish. The remaining 4 million were homosexuals, mentally ill (yes, in 1942, you'd have ranked in this group), and various political opponents (and more, this is not an exhaustive list).
That's the only point I was trying to make. I have not said any indication of my opinion regarding the view point itself. Only the emphasis for us all to be more tolerant.
We will not be tolerant of racism. You can't sit there and ask us to be tolerant of you being a white male. You're not someone who demands tolerance.

If you wish us to not consider your Asperger's, then show us another reason you require tolerance. Just like any African, Chinese, or Indian person who would do. Show us another reason to tolerate you other than your skin color.
As for your claims of Nazis would have slaughtered me on the spot, how would you know?
Only because I've given an insignificant piece of information ("Asperger's people" as you would call it).
I have answered this.
You, in fact, know nothing about me until you can prove it. (Meaning you can't say for certain that I possess characteristics that would have been selected for segregation or death.)
Asperger's would warrant death in the third reich, yes, absolutely.
Claiming I'm not part of a (or THE as you put it) "master race" is prejudice.
No, it's not. It's something you don't understand. You do realize that you don't know everything, right? ANd even if you did, you still don't understand all of it? You know that, right?
Furthermore, do you know what is meant by "master race"? That was more or less a goal to achieve.
It was a goal to achieve, among other things, a race that didn't include people like you.
That being said. this thread isn't about Nazis and neither is it about my stance on political beliefs.
So Lucifer, why did you start harassing me? Asking me what side I want to be on, seemingly deliberately misconstruing my words to publicly besmirch me by implying I've stated a view point on Nazism, and further personal attacks.
None of it is appreciated, and I ask you to stop coming after me just because you're angry and/or hate me. If it is for another reason, leave your anger/hate behind.
I'll show PMs if I have to, if you want to whine about harassment. I speak in public. You harass in PMs. There's a clear difference between us. I operate where people can see me. You hide behind Private Messages.

One difference is that you're a white supremicist woman-hating pig. I don't know why you're like that, you claim to support equality, but you don't act like anyone who does.

Perhaps you would benefit by studying interpersonal communications?
Lastly, If you would really ban "Bears" (and assuming you would also ban "Bear") then that limits the options available for team names. An example might be "The Ring bearers" or "The Right to Bear Arms". It has the word bears in it. Is it so bad that you would limit the vocabulary of the players?
This is only logical to a person who's mind is limited to string search and replaces. For the rest of us, this statement is completely ridiculous.
Image

Be the devil's own, Lucifer's my name.
- Iron Maiden

User avatar
Tank Program
Forum & Project Admin, PhD
Posts: 6704
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:03 pm

Re: unfortunately named persons and teams

Post by Tank Program »

This topic has been split from http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 60&t=23945 for the ongoing discussion about naming, etc. Please use the old topic for discussion about ladle actions.
Image

Word
Reverse Adjust Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 4168
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:13 pm

Re: unfortunately named persons and teams

Post by Word »

Also wasn't this topic about rules of some kind? Did no one like the example of a clearly laid out structure? One of which abolishes the use of political references, issues, etc... so basically that would cover this instance since Nazi is a political viewpoint.
To paraphrase a politician's quote that many Germans know, you can also manage a concentration camp when you have a sense of duty, calculability, practicality and steadfastness. The ladle rules serve to organize the tournament, of course they cannot be our moral compass. But as I tried to point out, the OP left out that even if the team sticked to the rules we shouldn't think that makes their names more acceptable. That being absent from Cody's post was the only reason I replied at all.
What people react to are the preconceptions of what it means; basically the delusions people maintain from the propaganda of war.
That they associate something with those images is clear, but I'm not sure what delusions you refer to. Here are some photos of concentration camps (graphic, but here it seems like it's appropriate to link...). You're totally oblivious to the idea that someone who names himself after one of the people directly responsible for these acts is morally obnoxious in any way; and that not everyone is as emotionally detached as you probably are (this shouldn't be an insult), and what a bad impact the war still had after it was long over.

User avatar
F0RC3
Core Dumper
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:33 pm

Re: unfortunately named persons and teams

Post by F0RC3 »

Is there a ladle rule restricting ladle team names from being named something that people might find offensive? I personally don't believe that a name of a team/players should be something that we should concern ourselves with changing.

If there isn't a rule banning such team names in the ladle then perhaps the community should vote on whether or not it thinks names such as those are appropriate.

If a vote for such a thing ever comes up, I would be voting against forcing them out simply for choosing a name that some people may not like. Names and words only hurt you if you let them, to me these are just names and words. I realize their association, but I don't think that really matters.

Locked