Vogue Ban Appeal [DISCUSSION]

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Durf
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Re: Vogue Ban Appeal [DISCUSSION]

Post by Durf »

Vogue wrote:
Titanoboa wrote:but if you don't have the figurative balls to say you're sorry and actually ask for an appeal in a serious manner
1) it wouldn't make a difference 2) i'd be lying
^ this is enough evidence to completely ignore the appeal. Admitting that you aren't sorry for your past transgressions and how you have no desire to make a serious appeal only shows how this entire topic is useless.
Vogue wrote:i'm not sorry but once my ban is over i won't break any more rules for the simple fact that it's too much of a hassle to have everyone complain about it, assuming the game isn't completely dead by then
Vogue get over yourself. Even if tron was in serious danger of dying out, you of all people couldn't save it. (the chauvinism of someone who was banned because they couldn't follow simple rules is probably the most patronizing aspect of your appeal; assuming we are to take it seriously. Its like a giant middle finger to everyone)
That being said, get your act together if you want the respect you delude yourself with. The fact is you were banned; fact is you're asking not to be; the FACT is, you need to change your attitude if you expect any results.

Y'know at first I probably would have supported the idea of shortening the ban (not that I have any real say in the matter), but now I'm leaning more towards something more permanent (forever banned).
I'll explain why in a bit.

If I had a team of my own, I would offer a probation idea. (it's not my team to offer that idea though)
One of which Vogue could be released into an existing team (in this case a fairly new team, the FTL aka KSI).
Anyway it's an idea...limited control of what Vogue would be able to do.

...
Snxpflash wrote:... As much as I and we all dislike(d) her lack of care for the rules... I care far more of her ability to make a team and generate interest to play in ladle. Like it or not, when all this bs started regarding her disciplinary repercussions and eventual ban.. is really (for me) when Ladle's downfall started to speed up. Like it or not people, allowing Vogue to play in Ladle again will have a positive affect on ladle, not a negative one. Maybe she isnt sorry for what she did but she obviously cares about ladle as much as we do.. she just has a really screwy way of showing it.
It's not simply a matter of "are they good at playing" and "do they follow the rules"....
Clearly, from the posts, you can see the arrogance of her words.
It is the principle of the matter.

Think of it this way:
Should the ban be lifted (appeal approved), it would not only be saying that everything she did in the past was acceptable enough for it to continue, but you'd also be admitting to the community as a whole that game skill is more important than etiquette and good sportsmanship (I'm fairly certain that the reason for the ban in the first place was not skill related).

Would you let out a serial killer from prison? even if they "weren't sorry" and any attempts to clear their name were treated like a joke? Of course not. And it doesn't matter what the crime is, the principle of the matter remains the same.
(IMO) She's trying to see just how big of pushovers you (the community) are.

The easiest AND safest thing to do would be to do nothing. let the existing ban run its course.
While I'm usually up for giving people a second chance (redemption), I'm also anal about those who don't accept the responsibility of their own actions.
Vogue's attitude has forced my opinion to not care of any potential skill level or any potential growth in fortress (let's be honest, how long has vogue been playing fort, and the whole time its been growing??? I don't think so)
A lack of skilled players isn't what is killing tron; it's people who can't play nice and/or follow rules.

Yes, I agree that skilled players can fuel competition and give others something to strive to beat; but I wouldn't sacrifice that for a nice playing environment. I have seen first hand that a bad environment is what will leave a server (or entire game) with nothing left but trolls, modders, or nothing at all because even the cheaters got bored (no one left to annoy). However if people enjoyed the game, no matter how much they sucked at first, they would return; no doubt.

So snxpflah I completely disagree. The overall effect would definitely be negative IMO

/me better stop before he types more

Anyway, I think this thread originally had potential, then I read the first post.
Any potential remaining was whittled down with all the indecorous wisecracking.
I urge my fellow tronners to think hard about what this would mean overall.
And to give you an idea, I don't even know Vogue (haven't played her as far as I can tell).
Hopefully this "outsider" opinion can show something a little more objective.

All in all, let the ban be.
Let it be, let it be, oh let it be.

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Soul
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Re: Vogue Ban Appeal [DISCUSSION]

Post by Soul »

+1 to Durf

Using the idea that she will somehow save ladle by making a team for ladle (which is not even a guarantee) as a reason to lift the ban is REALLY pathetic.

All she has done since her ban is troll and attempt to evade her ban. Even her request for a retrial is disrespectful (and carries a threat..HELLO??). How can any one of you be taking this seriously?

The community made the decision to ban her for 12 months, and she didn't even respect that decision. If anything should be done, an extension poll should be made in regards to the subsequent violations as Concord stated.
Chief Justice of the Armagetron Advanced Judicial System.
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Notable Bans Issued:
Vogue - 12 month ban(x2)
Lucifer - 1 Day

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RoterBaron1337
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Re: Vogue Ban Appeal [DISCUSSION]

Post by RoterBaron1337 »

Soul and Gazelle are the ones you should ban.

/topic

Can we make that happen?
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sinewav
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Re: Vogue Ban Appeal [DISCUSSION]

Post by sinewav »

You guys should write up some guidelines for an appeal process then vote on whether to accept the guidelines. After it is approved (if it is approved) you have have an appeal, which may or may not include a retrial. With any luck she can be unbanned in about 2 - 3 months.

Just kidding, ignore this trouble-maker. Ladle is better off without her.

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Ritsuka
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Re: Vogue Ban Appeal [DISCUSSION]

Post by Ritsuka »

I think the real question we need to ask ourselves is what do we have to lose by giving Lisa another chance? The fact that she's been banned this long and still seems determined to return to competitive fort leads me to believe that's she's unlikely to risk being banned again. What do we have to gain? Potentially, an additional team competing in the ladle.

The problem here is most people who support the ban have some personal issue with Liz influencing their decision. There are a few exceptions, but I still believe if this were any other player the ban hammer wouldn't be so quick to drop.

I guess what I'm trying to say is stop letting your personal opinions on liz affect the severity of punishment you believe she deserves. There's nothing in the ladle rules that says a player has to be a saint.

Lift the ban and stop using the rulebook to get revenge on people you don't like.

Vogue
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Re: Vogue Ban Appeal [DISCUSSION]

Post by Vogue »

okay, since you're all intent on making this into ~a real court case~ or at the very least a presidential candidate debate - which proof will you provide that i allegedly played since my ban? conc had proof for the 1st time (ip), and Ww had proof for the 2nd time (i logged in with my GID & this is how i got banned for a year.) unless you can offer that, you can't make my sentence longer. period.


now: how would one vote for an appeal? do the team leaders who originally convicted me vote OR the current ones for lets say, next ladle? i'd agree with both, the latter seems more logical because i'd be affecting those people by playing and not most???? of the previous ones.

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takburger
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Re: Vogue Ban Appeal [DISCUSSION]

Post by takburger »

I wonder if there is a correlation between the recent ladle trolling and recent ladle lack of teams. I mean, 3 month trolling and the next month : no teams. It may be just a coincidence.

ps: +1durf, you saved me a long post to reply to snxp:)
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compguygene
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Re: Vogue Ban Appeal [DISCUSSION]

Post by compguygene »

Liz (Vogue), you do raise some valid questions.
I agree that it is very doubtful that we have any proof of any of your evading your ban. But the real question here is in regards to an appeal. Sinewav makes the best and simplest point of all. We would have to first create a process to make an appeal, vote on that and then follow that process.
What I have asked several times now is for you, or anybody to give me a reason why we should do that. To me, "because Liz is such an awesome player", "because the Ladle needs more teams", or "because Liz brings competitiveness the Ladle lacks" are not valid reasons". Typically, reasons for an appeal would be things that went wrong with the original trial process, new evidence that has emerged to overturn a conviction, or a pursuit of clemency because of genuine reform having been achieved by the convicted person. I don't really see any of these here. I am open to anybody pointing out what I don't see.
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Re: Vogue Ban Appeal [DISCUSSION]

Post by Vogue »

i got banned for like 1/2 months after i played as vein, then i played like one round for Ww and got 12 months. i'd say going from 1/2 to 12 was wrong and many people voted with their emotions. the logical next step would've been 4 or 8 months. that answer sufficient, compguygene?

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compguygene
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Re: Vogue Ban Appeal [DISCUSSION]

Post by compguygene »

Well, if you look at the U.S. and U.K. legal systems (which I briefly did), they do allow for an appellate process to allow a higher court to change an excessive sentence.
In practical terms, we would need to first create an appeal process, vote on that. And then follow said process.
I will be completely honest and transparent about my own opinions here. I may not personally think that the ban should be changed. However, I also think that should have no bearing on the need for this to be resolved in a proper manner not based on my opinion, or the opinions of some in the community. We, as a community have always tried to do things in a fair and balanced manner, and we should continue to do so.
As such, I am going to start a topic to create an appeals process. Typically, an appeals process would include a vote to decide if an appeal is heard. A public debate on the appeal. And a final decision on the appeal. I cannot guarantee that your appeal will even be heard. However, I do think we can at least put the process in place and go there.
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takburger
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Re: Vogue Ban Appeal [DISCUSSION]

Post by takburger »

In law, you can appeal a decision of justice as it is seen as abusive from the defendant. You can also beg for a pardon upon a decision, from a higher authority.

You can also reopen a case when new evidence is found.

Here we have blondie suggesting we reopen the case, Vogue asking for an appeal as she feels the judgement is too harsh, the community that could decide to give a pardon, or the community that could decide to "unban on probation".
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Vogue
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Re: Vogue Ban Appeal [DISCUSSION]

Post by Vogue »

I drop all statements regarding not being sorry, here's my official apology [audio]

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orion
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Re: Vogue Ban Appeal [DISCUSSION]

Post by orion »

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RoterBaron1337
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Re: Vogue Ban Appeal [DISCUSSION]

Post by RoterBaron1337 »

I mean, can't we vote Liz for being the troll of tron? **** look how creative that girl is.. most girls i know are dumb as shit but this girl here is like Eminem, grown up with poor skills in sumo she evolved to be the best in this game.

#FreeLiz
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takburger
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Re: Vogue Ban Appeal [DISCUSSION]

Post by takburger »

k go sumo 1v1 vs blondie, good trial combat
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