Ladle 83 Rule Change Discussion

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owned
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Ladle 83 Rule Change Discussion

Post by owned »

Edit: Discuss any rule changes you would like to be voted on here.

Here is a place to discuss the rules and procedures we go through when someone breaks the rules.

As I noted here: http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 71#p286071
the current rules were never voted on by the community(Edit: As sine mentioned, they were voted on by the community) and also are, in my opinion, unnecessarily complicated and confusing.

Here is how I think voting should work:

1. A list is made of players that people think broke the rules. I think as long as multiple people say a player should be added onto the list, then the player should be added onto the list.
2. A new topic is made where each team from the ladle in question gets one vote (and maybe server admins as well?). The vote is the following:

How many ladles should "insert player here" be banned from? (choose a number 0 or greater)

After a week, the voting is tallied and the median number of ladles wins. If the median is a decimal, then the winning number of ladles is that number rounded down.

To enforce the banning of a player, we can create the following rule:

If a banned player plays on a team while banned, the whole team is banned for the following ladle (or we can also put the team up for another vote).

What do you guys think? Any arguments, any suggestions?
Last edited by owned on Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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compguygene
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Re: Ladle 83 Voting Ban Discussion

Post by compguygene »

I don't remember us actually voting on the current system. Perhaps Sinewav, who did the majority of the work can shed some light on that. What is being proposed here may be a better solution. There is the precedent of the incident with Team Binary in Ladle 36 http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 60&t=20494 is the thread with the results.
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Soul
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Re: Ladle 83 Voting Ban Discussion

Post by Soul »

Looks good to me
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Pr3
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Re: Ladle 83 Voting Ban Discussion

Post by Pr3 »

owned wrote:
If a banned player plays on a team while banned, the whole team is banned for the following ladle (or we can also put the team up for another vote).
I think this should also clarify what happens if a banned player is discovered during the ladle & what happens to the team/clan. Other than that I think this is a pretty straight forward policy.

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kyle
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Re: Ladle 83 Voting Ban Discussion

Post by kyle »

I remember there being a vote by team leaders publicly, after we made the rules, We had the proposed guidelines for this at that time. I however cannot find that topic. it should have been august or September 2010

maybe http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 60&t=20527
http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 60&t=20587
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Re: Ladle 83 Voting Ban Discussion

Post by sinewav »

The current punishment system was voted on, as kyle posted above. The warnings section was rolled into the L-36 rule revisions. Everyone got a chance to look at it and no one came up with a better solution. The wiki seems confusing because it is poorly written, not because the procedure is complicated. Basically, "was an offense committed, and if so, how severe on a scale of 1-3?" That's not too hard. The current max penalty is a one Ladle ban plus one year probation. Not steep enough? Fine, change it. Any procedure you come up with will essentially work the same way.

This system was used against Baylife after L-57. There was plenty of time to make changes to the system at that time and no one stepped up. The Baylife incident was way more damaging than this crap. No one wanted to do shit back then. Yet today everyone is asking for Liz's head? Really?

I won't stand by and watch people complain about morality and how we need a system, blah, blah, blah. It's a bunch of crap. Time and time again the community has proven to be spineless. Everyone wants to hide behind an anonymous vote and have justice served by proxy. Guess what? The punishment system works, as Baylife proved. Go ahead and use it and vote "no" like you always do.

In the meantime I'll dish out my own penalty. Over the years I've spent countless hours supporting this tournament. I spend actual money on servers because I love Ladle. I can't even play in Ladle! You think you are going to thumb your nose at the rules and LOL your way into next month's tournament? Well, you won't be playing in my servers, that is for sure. I recommend all owners/administrators treat their Ladle servers like any other server. When someone is a dick, give them a kick!

I don't have time for this discussion, so I'll let you get back to rewriting the same system with a new name.

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Re: Ladle 83 Voting Ban Discussion

Post by owned »

Can you please give evidence that it was voted on instead of just saying it was? From the topic that kyle posted, it seems like this list was drafted by you guys and after some discussion between people (like me) it was put in the ladle rules section.

Regardless of whether it was voted on or not though, it seems like some people are now dissatisfied with it including me. So after some more discussion, I'll hold a vote among all team leaders whether to adopt these new procedures.

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Re: Ladle 83 Voting Ban Discussion

Post by sinewav »

owned wrote:Can you please give evidence that it was voted on instead of just saying it was?
Kyle posted it above. The Warning section was part of the sweeping L-36 rule revisions. You even commented on them yourself, as I linked to above.

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Soul
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Re: Ladle 83 Voting Ban Discussion

Post by Soul »

Ladle 36? How many of us were even around back then?

I definitely think that Woned's new system is much more flexible, useful, and efficient. It seems like everyone else agrees the current system is flawed and needs revisions.
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owned
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Re: Ladle 83 Voting Ban Discussion

Post by owned »

sinewav wrote:
owned wrote:Can you please give evidence that it was voted on instead of just saying it was?
Kyle posted it above. The Warning section was part of the sweeping L-36 rule revisions. You even commented on them yourself, as I linked to above.
I'm confused. You're sending me to a link about voting on seeding. Not a link about voting on the punishment system. In the topic that I commented in, it looks like the rest of the rule revisions were decided by community agreement, but not by voting. After rereading the topic, I don't think this was an illegitimate way of making new rules, but it (the two links given at least) is fairly clearly not a vote.

But yeah, as in my previous post, and as Soul is saying, the decisions made back at Ladle 36 don't determine what decisions we make now. The punishment system can be improved, and I think the rules I proposed will improve on the old ones.

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Re: Ladle 83 Voting Ban Discussion

Post by dinobro »

So, disregarding Vogue for a second as we can think of a random Joe Doe that broke rule number X - If server owner doesn't like our poor Joe, is biased or incompetent or just has opinion that not necessarily mirrors the opinion of majority of players, they can ban our poor Joe on their own will and expect their server to be still eligible to be used in next Ladle. That's madness. You basically allow server owners to pick who can play Ladle and who doesn't on their own wish. If that was anyone but Vogue you would be flipping your shit now.
So there it is guys, you created rules, procedures and all that, for what? In theory you created rules to be able to conduct ruling and give out punishment that will be fair and equal to anyone that may break the rules. You created procedures and rules in case you need to be objective when ruling against someone you are biased about (Vogue) or someone you like. Basically, what I can tell from majority of your posts guys - you created rules to be unbiased and you all throw them away because you rule against someone you don't like. I wonder what liked people can get away with then...
Basically, you all need to stop and think, because you all behave like a mindless, angry mob that wants their idea of a "justice". There is a written procedure, there are warnings. You either follow the rules you once created by yourselves or it will be freaking madness.

@Sine - I didn't talk to you too much, nor I know you that well personally, but I thought you are a decent guy who is rather trying to stay cool-headed. Instead, you are going behind rules you, from what i understand, written yourself and you take ruling into your own hand. It's just kind of sad.
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takburger
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Re: Ladle 83 Voting Ban Discussion

Post by takburger »

Funny, when you click on Dinobro's profile and check his posts you can see he posted on this forum only to talk about vogue and how she is the best and all.

I wish we could check ips, coz vogue was so active on this topic then she disappeared and dinobro appeared... lol
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Gazelle
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Re: Ladle 83 Voting Ban Discussion

Post by Gazelle »

I went back through a couple of dinobro's post.. He clearly states that he is "jsour". Just wanted to clear that up :)

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Re: Ladle 83 Voting Ban Discussion

Post by dinobro »

Vogue introduced me to the game, yes I do like Vogue and finally yes, I am biased.
Though I'm the one actually calling for sticking to the rules instead of making new ones after the fact simply to try to exclude her from the community.

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Re: Ladle 83 Voting Ban Discussion

Post by takburger »

Gazelle wrote:I went back through a couple of dinobro's post.. He clearly states that he is "jsour". Just wanted to clear that up :)
indeed, i missed that :)
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