Pickup survey results are up!

[takburger]

I have my own opinion (as pointed out on my first post on that thread). And I am currently developing something that is the solution to my point of view.

But if we have a common base we can have better understanding.

Its ok though, this will be another useless discussion with no action taken. I'm off this topic for good. bb

[Gonzap]

Is there a way to build a server that keeps track of statistics for every individual and rate them by elo? So after everymatch the players would be scrambled or sorted out between both teams divided by elo. For example, among the present players the highest rated would be on blue, the second highest rated on gold, etc.

Public fortress with sort of competitive teams.

[Venijn]

I love that idea sine, and I hope that it would be possible to implement. (EDIT Another great idea Gonzap)

Perhaps we could test some other things while we were here.

For example, (as previously stated) randomised teams, perhaps randomised server.

Another thing I read somewhere suggested that players could add to fort6 by typing something like !add fort6e e - EU, and !add fort6u U - US. Maybe once we had 12, the bot could determine the server depending on the number of players from each Region, and a random one when it is 6v6. Alternatively, we could just /vote scramble as a matter of course. Anyway, that is perhaps another discussion.

As for this one, I think that if 6v6 fort became formalised upon 12 players joining the server, there are potentially the same problems that exist with the current pickup format. I think I'm not really saying anything here, but perhaps pickup servers (and how to use them) can be publicised throughout this testing period?

I don't feel like I added anything here.

[Vogue]

I personally don't think uneven teams are the problem. I've seen the underdog win many times, and sometimes you just have to accept that you lost the match and try better for the next one. Sure may not be fun for the person who feels like they're not as good as the rest, but it's an incentive to try harder.

The problem is introducing new players to pickup.... how many were that? One in the past year? It needs to be easier to get into, which is a hard task to accomplish.

[bilbo baggins]

as liz said, megafort imo is pointless past 6v6 it gets laggy and too chaotic with very few prolonged rounds (rounds over a minuite long)

unfortunately i cant offer a solution as such, but a players score cannot determine there skill/contribution to a team indefinately, we all know that defences for example score more points than other positions and you could have a low score and still be an absolute pro at fortress, its the best idea as of yet to come out of the discussion but if you want truly unbiased teams they have to be picked, which is the big problem for pickup so nothing has been solved

path's idea sounds good because instead of people just hanging around on IRC they can play casually until 12 players enter, This could be a good way to integrate a few new players, newbie: oohh server with 10 players in called "fortress" whats this? Bam srs match, newbie go 3, do this that and that then try and take the zone etc... This is throwing new players in at the deep end and this will steer a few players away from fortress but some will be intruiged and try to improve.

Sorry about my rant, i feel i addressed nothing, but happy reading

[ogo]

Some good ideas here - I think teams determined by stats or random teams would be really fun. What's vital is that these things are organised on the server itself, not on pickup or any other external point. Is that feasible?

[epsy]

The bot is offline and the replacement servers are up.

[F0RC3]

Would it be possible for a way to connect to irc to be put on these forums or on the main site? Actually getting on irc/knowing how to get on irc can be a barrier to people playing pickup matches.

The goal of pickup is to be competitive, and honestly it isn't as competitive as it should be right now. Something I think about changing is the ability for teams to talk with each other. Talking to the opposite team shouldn't be allowed, as it allows for too much focus on talking rather than being competitive. Team chat and private messages should only be allowed for team members, while the team leaders are able to talk in /shout chat as well as /team in order to communicate anything that may need to be communicated between the two teams.

In order to make pickup more competitive I also suggest all players on both teams be randomly picked. I suggest the randomly picked teams as it should create more balanced teams overall and speed up the start time of the match, and when the teams are uneven the no talking to the other team and keeping talking only in team chat will allow teamwork develop more readily than it does now to try and overcome the better team. The outcome will likely be the better team winning, but trying to overcome the better team as the weaker team with strategy is also a part of competitive play.

I would also like to suggest positions be randomly picked as well. Randomly picking positions will allow player growth in more than just their preferred position and also speed up the start time of the match. While i say we should randomize team positions, I also think that the team captain should be able to change these positions if he/she wants or if team members are willing to switch positions, and the randomization mechanic for positions is rather just there to help the game start faster. This could be especially useful if a newer player is picked as captain, and has default positions for people so the game can start quick, while a more experienced team captain can pick players positions and get the game started fast as well.

Edit: I also like Gonzaps idea of elo instead of randomization and it could be useful, though it could be taken advantage of due to several reasons like aliases and people being carried to higher elo positions (though carrying should be fixed with enough playing) There may also be other potential problems, but I like the idea if it can be used by analyzing our logins perhaps.

Another suggestion for pickup is to allow team members to be able to invite after the match has started. This way if the referee/team leader disconnects or are alive, the team can invite someone who has disconnected or invite their replacement. Only allow the invites after the match as started, allowing before the match starts allows for trolling by inviting players not on the team. I'm not sure if this mechanic is possible to implement, but it is just a suggestion.

In the case of public fort trying to be more competitive, perhaps a system could be put in place like the brawl servers did. Just when 12 people gather and if all are willing, 2 people captain (Likely 2 of the better players, or have the server pick two captains when it reaches 12 people) and then pick teams. When ready start the match. This way adding isn't necessary and will allow public players to play in serious matches. To make it faster perhaps a random picking function or random positioning function could be used.


Also guys, you don't have to be so mean to tak. Perhaps tak would come up with a really great idea if you tell him the problems that you think are so obvious. Some things are not as obvious to some people as they are to others, a great example of this would be in the discussion for ladle 81. If you don't want to help him out by telling him the things that you find obvious, perhaps they weren't as obvious to everyone as you thought.

And tak, just because a problem is obvious that doesn't mean solving the problem will be easy. There are too many possibillities of the solution messing something else up, doing something unintended, or simply not working like you thought it would. Humans aren't perfect and can't see past every possible outcome of all solutions. There also may not be a possible solution to something that is obvious, though i don't think this is one of those situations. I'm just saying it isn't always easy to solve an identified problem.

[sinewav]

My vision of a better public Fortress will likely involve a custom server. This is what I imagine:

Tronners who want to play Fortress just go play rather than waiting for people to !add. I know some players will not even join unless there is a full server, and that is sad, but there is nothing we can do about that. However, people will join if they see people playing. I think the pickup.bot should make announcements every 10 minutes or so informing the IRC channel of any Fortress games. This might stir some of the more reluctant players to action. (I have always wanted "cross-promotion." Since pickup players always promote in servers, why not promote public games in pickup? It is only fair and the benefit is, more Fortress is played instead of people waiting to play.)

When the teams finally reach 6v6, players have the option of voting for a serious match. If accepted, the server goes into "warmup mode." Teams are immediately /scrambled (possibly using some sort of metric to balance the teams though I think this is less important). During this phase, games will not start until everyone /readies. This allows for fine-tuning: What if the /scramble brought in AFK specs? What if one team is stacked? Teams can /suspend AFK's and trade players to balance the teams. This still allows for some agency in determining team strength and balance since stats alone would never be enough anyway.

This pattern continues indefinitely. Teams are /scrambled at the end of every match. Specs get priority in the /scramble. Team adjustments can be made during the warmup (no need for captains because so many people hate the responsibility!). Play starts when everyone is /ready. Teams are /scrambled at the end of every match....

There should also be the option to /vote remove pickup when teams fall below 6 players, thus returning to traditional public Fort. Or maybe it does it automatically. I don't know.

My goal is to pull the good parts of pickup into the public realm. The system above, if possible, solves a number of problems. It eliminates rotten captains who don't have a sense of what to do or simply don't care. It gets the games going faster. It creates serious matches out of public ones. It gets more people playing more often and is totally open to new players.

So what I want to know is, how much customization is involved with making a server like this? Most of the code already exists. How much more needs to be written? And who has the motivation to do it? Can I pay you?

Remember, no system will be perfect. The goal should be compromise and innovation. Fortress evolves. Let's focus on now and change later if needed.

Code: Select all

if 6v6 = true
  /vote pickup

while pickup = true
  warmup mode = on
  scramble(players)
  ready(players)

[Overrated]

Just to throw this out there, I don't really play casually unless I see someone I want to play with (normally another R). Not sure how that fares compared to others (and whether or not it's relevant), but it is just a thought. Hopefully this turns out for the better. I like sine's idea and I think zap's idea could possibly be implemented, but maybe only when a certain server is in that pickup mode maybe? I know I don't take most casual games very serious because I don't see that attitude in a lot of the players.

[Concord]

regardless of how good casual or pickup servers are, fortress won't grow without a concerted effort to recruit new players.

the player base hasn't grown in size since Ladle 18. New players have come in, but not at a faster rate than old players move on. The only time the player base ever grew was when we actively recruited players and clans from other game modes to compete in Ladles. Monkey began this by forming teams of new players in Ladle 17. We began directly recruiting whole clans from other game modes (ID, WW, PRU, Night Walkers) to enter Ladles. Pike organized the Manic Tentacles teams. Unk was formed with a bunch of fortress noobs, with the direct intention of competing in Ladles. Plus and Arrow brought new fortress players together into successful teams. We've had between 12 and 16 or 17 teams ever since.

And ever since, most of the time that new long term players come to the game, they come through clans who want to compete in Ladles. Look at R coming from CTF or the Phoenix players coming from CTWF. The Ladle is the only valuable thing which other game modes don't have. Pickup can be refined into a diamond, but if you rarely have more than 12 players interested in playing anyway, I don't see the point.

[Titanoboa]

(I'll read all the posts later)

for now I'll just say: one major issue with our [fortress] community is that we aren't able to run parallel servers of the same game mode. Sure, sometimes you'll see 2 sumo bars populated, but I've "never" really seen two fortress servers successfully populated at the same time (unless there's a war going on in one), even back when there were several good options. That's why 6v6 public fort is an issue, because you'll find 12 people playing and up to 10 players spectating. "Ughhh why can't WE play, 9v9 is much better". I mean, sure, potter is in that first server so it's a LITTLE less fun to play in the other one. But you can play with potter tomorrow! or in a couple hours! (is potter still active? idk.)

If we get into the thought of 2 parallel 6v6 public fort servers, the step to a 3rd and 4th isn't that huge, and that's when we can start expanding for real. (I don't see it ever working out though )
But if we can get that going, I think players will start coming.

(Like I said, didn't read (or even skim through) your wonderful posts right now, this is a random insert, I'll catch up later.)

[Vogue]

New players have come in, but not at a faster rate than old players move on.

this right here is how the game is slowly dying. for every 10 players that quit, there's barely 1 filling the shoes... this is quite disturbing, i don't think tron will exist anymore in a year or two

[epsy]

I almost forgot, you can replicate the servers I put up with just this:

Code: Select all

RESOURCE_REPOSITORY_CLIENT http://resource.hashpickup.net/
RESOURCE_REPOSITORY_SERVER http://resource.hashpickup.net/
RINCLUDE epsy/public-0.0.1.aacfg.cfg

# For fortress
RINCLUDE epsy/fort6/pubfort-0.1.aacfg.cfg

# For team sumo
RINCLUDE epsy/sumo/teamsumo-0.1.aacfg.cfg

# For king of the fortress
RINCLUDE epsy/kotf/pubkotf-0.1.aacfg.cfg

[kite]

See you guys June 5th \o