Bowl request

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Fippmam
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Re: Bowl request

Post by Fippmam »

Cody, what clan are you team leader of?

This appeal shouldn't even be happening. The wiki rules are supposed to be infallible and upheld, regardless of the dates of addendums - if they aren't, then they can hardly be called rules. To make an exception now, would just result in future discrepancies, especially if the issue repeats itself (which it probably will.)

Anyway I'm not team captain for R, so go with whatever Over says.

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takburger
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Re: Bowl request

Post by takburger »

Cody voted no so I vote yes.

That is if non-leading the non-clan Sh counts.
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Titanoboa
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Re: Bowl request

Post by Titanoboa »

woof wrote:a full roster shouldn't change orion being eligible. [...] I don't think we should factor that into the decision
Indeed, whatever we decide for Orion will have an effect on future bowls. How big an effect is impossible to tell.
sinewav wrote:[...] I don't see a very strong reason we should make exceptions for Orion.
No exceptions for anyone! If Orion is allowed to play, any player has to be allowed to play if the same thing happens in the future. We need to disregard him and Rd in particular and look at the situation in general, and consider different variations:
- If a team only had 5 players and this situation arose, would we want to let the 6th player prove his/her participation in retrospect? If yes, there is reason to agree on a rule allowing that.
- If a "last minute" player were likely to make a significant difference to the outcome and it's suspicious if he actually did play in the ladle in question, would we demand actual proof? If yes, we should do the same for anyone who wants to join "last minute" (in lack of a better term).
Soul wrote:Well it seems like all 4 teams have agreed to let Orion play (correct me if I'm wrong).
Edit: Nvm, wap and titan arent team leaders for their respective clans
What?
I said I'm against the vote, and in the beginning there was the condition "but only if". How do you count that as a yes? Also, I've been an R team leader for a few months, but not this last one, because I wasn't there. Either way, I never voted yes (or at all).
And wap said: "which would mean Orion can play in the bowl if he indeed has played for Redemption 5 times (which I think he can prove?)." Orion has provided no such proof; how do you count wap's post as a yes?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


If we're deciding this by a vote, the vote should be for adding a rule that allows this in general, not about letting Orion play in particular.

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orion
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Re: Bowl request

Post by orion »

No, I didnt reach enought votes yet Titan, only RD and Unk have voted.
I didnt put you as TL because I heard you was retired or something similar, any R member can come and make the definitive vote in the name of R, i dont mind
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Titanoboa
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Re: Bowl request

Post by Titanoboa »

???


:|

Seriously.


???
Last edited by Titanoboa on Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

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orion
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Re: Bowl request

Post by orion »

Titanoboa wrote:
orion wrote:No, I didnt reach enought votes yet Titan
???


:|

Seriously.


???

what? im agreeing that R and CT didnt vote yet
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Hoax
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Re: Bowl request

Post by Hoax »

Isn't the point of the bowl to reflect a team over the course of a season? Either you meet the criteria for qualification or you don't.

"though the community may allow it on a case-by-case basis. discussion" - community is rather ambiguous here

I expect the conclusion will be that orion will be able to play in this case (based on above if it's actually in the rules) & the rules looked over/modified for the future. After all at least one other player has played for more than one qualifying bowl team and also the credibility of the challenge board in the first place.

I'd say any challenge board edits at a later date to try and qualify for the bowl would look rather suspicious. If teams (captains) edited their roster after the ladle to show who actually played it would be a lot more credible, especially as it's used for stats also. I used to do this in the early days but that's just one team of many. If anything I'd propose a rule that the team captain(s) should edit their roster after to show who actually played at least (for example Vogue isn't listed on team.unk)
There are a few queries though as to who should be on the board after thinking about it, for example should you be on the board if
-you didn't play?
-you showed up but didn't play?
-you were signed up but didn't make it for whatever reason
-possible format differences to show this (Bold player names for example)

I very much doubt every team would adhere to this anyway but this discussion just got me thinking

In fact I was signed up for unk.team this ladle but didn't end up playing. Without checking, what if I removed myself and this took me under 5 appearances? Would you count that I was signed up, didnt play for anyone else, and planned to play for unk?

The challenge board has always been a casual affair but if discussions like this are going to come up where it's used to make decisions, it rather makes a mockery of that. Though I suspect apathy outweighs enforcement here

Cody
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Re: Bowl request

Post by Cody »

Fippmam wrote:Cody, what clan are you team leader of?
Kay Sexuals

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DaGarBBaGeMAN
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Re: Bowl request

Post by DaGarBBaGeMAN »

Titanoboa wrote:???


:|

Seriously.


???

Lol!!!! Cracked me up. Anyways, I have put my vote in invisible color for you: Only Over votes for R
Image -made by az95

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Fippmam
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Re: Bowl request

Post by Fippmam »

You know, I was more amused than I should have been when I realized that when highlighted, the invisible text becomes legible.

Good play, sir DGM

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sinewav
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Re: Bowl request

Post by sinewav »

Hoax has several good points. The Challenge Board is imperfect but what is an alternative? Mostly, the Rule of 5 works. Had Orion edited the Challenge Board immediately following Ladle we wouldn't even have this conversation. After reading Hoax's analysis, I am now leaning toward making the rules firmer. The Challenge Board is the word. Late edits not permitted. No appeal with a recording. This seems more in-line with "be serious, be seen." Sure the Challenge Board cannot tell us who actually played unless the players themselves make a point to ensure it is correct, but that is the point. If you are serious enough to make the immediate edits you deserve to play.

In addition, members who are part of a team's roster and never played a match are still part of the team. The Rule of 5 is there is dissuade clan hopping and to prevent ad hoc teams from getting into the Bowl. Looking at the Bowl rosters I would say the current system works as well as expected.

Vogue
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Re: Bowl request

Post by Vogue »

If these rules are in place to prevent clanhopping, and orion is having issues now because he hopped and isn't sure if he played 5, then he shouldn't be allowed to play. Right now, I highly doubt any clanhoppers (which are quite a bunch, including myself) worry at all about being able to qualify for bowl. It would be an afterthought, much as it was to orion. He could be made an example of that you need to follow the rules or you can't play.

Gonzap
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Re: Bowl request

Post by Gonzap »

I like Hoax's idea, but just a part of it. I explain myself: I think we should allow teamleaders to edit the wiki after ladle to reflect who were the actual players of the team (including substitutes), but only REMOVE from the roster those players that were added but didn't play for the team and INSTEAD played for ANOTHER team different from the one they were added in first place.

This way we won't punish players who were added and compromised to play for a team but couldn't make it for whatever reason and also we wouldn't punish those players that couldn't play because of team decisions but remained loyal to their team and didn't play for somebody else.

Of course the only issue would be teamleader's honesty, but I think we can trust each other that this will be done properly. It's kinda easy to prove some player didn't play for a certain team a few days after ladle (those who played against them would remember) or through recordings.

Overrated
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Re: Bowl request

Post by Overrated »

Can I ask for clarification on the ladle orion had played in other than the four listed? He told me at one point; but I don't recall which one it is. I remember seeing orion sub; but I'm unsure on the whole specifics and whether or not we can prove he played for them.

Edit: derp, missed sine's post. Will make a revision shortly on our decision.
BRAWL dead. RIP.

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owned
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Re: Bowl request

Post by owned »

CTa says yes.

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