Bowl request

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owned
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Re: Bowl request

Post by owned »

wap wrote:Is it possible to check this?
Yeah, if you're on practically any wiki, you can check all edits by going to the top and clicking the history tab.

Here is the relevant link: http://wiki.armagetronad.org/index.php? ... on=history

In this case it seems like the part was added on March 24, 2014 by sine. I think he intended it to be a clarification of the rules written earlier.

The rules before that were:
Requirements to play in The Magargle Bowl are as follows (Rule of 5):
* Teams must play at least 5 of the 9 Ladles in each season.
* Players must play on the same team at least 5 times during the season to join them in The Bowl.
* Teams must have at least 5 eligible players.

Of course, this means the Challenge Board and [[Ladle/Results|Results]] page are critical to determining who is eligible. ''Teams and players should use the same name throughout the season.'' Even slight variations can cause confusion when recording stats and may ruin a team's rank. Aliases (and name variations) may cause unclear eligibility. In short: '''be serious, been seen'''.

Vogue
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Re: Bowl request

Post by Vogue »

This is really easy, just follow the rules. Can he play according to the rules?

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sinewav
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Re: Bowl request

Post by sinewav »

Vogue wrote:This is really easy, just follow the rules. Can he play according to the rules?
That's the problem. We use the Challenge Board as the ultimate guide for deciding such matters. Without wiki edits, no, he cannot play. The loophole is this: After Ladle, the Challenge Board may be edited to reflect actual results. This means writing in backup servers or adding/removing players if substitutions were made. There is currently no time limit on when this can happen (though I am trying to impose one through my clarification above) and Orion has indeed moved himself around the results pages recently, on Ladle 74 and 76. He was a substitute for Redemption in L-74 and wants it to count toward Bowl even though he did not join them until much later and did not point out his substitution until a couple weeks ago. Ladle 74 was last October. If I were to adjudicate this matter I would say no, his actions do not fall in line with "be serious, be seen." Bowl was an afterthought to him and he wants to be involved now. This event is deliberately designed to discourage clan-hopping and Orion is on the very cusp of what is, or is not, acceptable.

One thing is for sure, this is a lot of trouble for one player who is not likely to make a difference in the outcome of Bowl. No one player will because all the teams have full rosters with subs already. This will make the difference between Redemption having 7 or 8 players to field a 6-person team.

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wap
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Re: Bowl request

Post by wap »

sinewav wrote:That's the problem. We use the Challenge Board as the ultimate guide for deciding such matters. Without wiki edits, no, he cannot play.
Why not, if he has other ways of proving he played for RD that ladle? The rules as they were, simply stated that a player must have played on the same team for at least 5 times to be allowed to play. If he can prove this, he can play. Don't see why we should solely use the challenge board to decide this.

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ogo
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Re: Bowl request

Post by ogo »

I vote no, I don't have a reason

Vogue
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Re: Bowl request

Post by Vogue »

sinewav wrote:
Vogue wrote:This is really easy, just follow the rules. Can he play according to the rules?
That's the problem. We use the Challenge Board as the ultimate guide for deciding such matters. Without wiki edits, no, he cannot play. The loophole is this: After Ladle, the Challenge Board may be edited to reflect actual results. This means writing in backup servers or adding/removing players if substitutions were made. There is currently no time limit on when this can happen (though I am trying to impose one through my clarification above) and Orion has indeed moved himself around the results pages recently, on Ladle 74 and 76. He was a substitute for Redemption in L-74 and wants it to count toward Bowl even though he did not join them until much later and did not point out his substitution until a couple weeks ago. Ladle 74 was last October. If I were to adjudicate this matter I would say no, his actions do not fall in line with "be serious, be seen." Bowl was an afterthought to him and he wants to be involved now. This event is deliberately designed to discourage clan-hopping and Orion is on the very cusp of what is, or is not, acceptable.

One thing is for sure, this is a lot of trouble for one player who is not likely to make a difference in the outcome of Bowl. No one player will because all the teams have full rosters with subs already. This will make the difference between Redemption having 7 or 8 players to field a 6-person team.
Okay that's clear, I'll vote no in that case.

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dreadlord
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Re: Bowl request

Post by dreadlord »

orion wrote:With sinewav we agreed i should make a "poll" where the four team leaders of qualify teams must vote
Nothing against you, ogo and vogue, but I think your votes do not count here.

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orion
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Re: Bowl request

Post by orion »

I dont want make a long discussion about this, I will just wait for Over, Pr3, Woner/jdawgg, Soul replies (sorry if im missing some team leader)
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Re: Bowl request

Post by sinewav »

wap wrote:If he can prove this, he can play. Don't see why we should solely use the challenge board to decide this.
Agreed! And we already discussed this a couple weeks ago. The best way to confirm player participation would be an AAREC of the Ladle in question. Unfortunately, none exists for Orion in Ladle 74. Right now we are taking the word of his clanmates over anything concrete. This is the crux of the problem. A future rule should state something like this: late Challenge Board edits will not be accepted and any appeals must be accompanied by a AAREC with --fastforward information (for ease of verification). But since we can't realistically hold Orion to rules not yet written it is simply the decision of the 3 other seeds whether he should play. And since Redemption already has a full roster with a sub, adding Orion makes practically no difference whatsoever. I am personally against it because this is exactly the type of thing Bowl is designed to discourage, that is, players floating between teams. Then again, Gazelle joined another team for a couple Ladles before returning to his origin and he still qualifies, so you can see "the rule of 5" already provides a lot of freedom. But again, it's not my decision. The Bowl qualifiers will decide.

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sinewav
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Re: Bowl request

Post by sinewav »

dreadlord wrote:
orion wrote:With sinewav we agreed i should make a "poll" where the four team leaders of qualify teams must vote
Nothing against you, ogo and vogue, but I think your votes do not count here.
To clarify this, Orion only needs approval from 3 teams since he is on the 4th. And everyone's opinion matters because this is still under debate, so even those not in Bowl should have a voice. We are in the process of creating policy that affects everyone.

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dreadlord
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Re: Bowl request

Post by dreadlord »

sinewav wrote:
dreadlord wrote:
orion wrote:With sinewav we agreed i should make a "poll" where the four team leaders of qualify teams must vote
Nothing against you, ogo and vogue, but I think your votes do not count here.
To clarify this, Orion only needs approval from 3 teams since he is on the 4th. And everyone's opinion matters because this is still under debate, so even those not in Bowl should have a voice. We are in the process of creating policy that affects everyone.
Yeah, I don't mind them voicing their opinions, but ogo's post in particular did not really sound like a justified opinion.

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ogo
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Re: Bowl request

Post by ogo »

I'm going to change my vote to a maybe, though probably still no

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Soul
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Re: Bowl request

Post by Soul »

Well it seems like all 4 teams have agreed to let Orion play (correct me if I'm wrong).
Edit: Nvm, wap and titan arent team leaders for their respective clans

I think we should do what wap said and not only use the challenge board, since that is commonly incorrect.

Also, nice to see the date is the 27th instead!
Last edited by Soul on Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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owned
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Re: Bowl request

Post by owned »

I don't think the team leader of any team other than RD has said yes in this topic. That said, it also doesn't seem like any people have any serious disagreements. As for CT, right now I'm waiting to see if anyone in the clan is against it. I expect we'll say yes tomorrow.

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Re: Bowl request

Post by Cody »

I vote no cause orion was in SP and SP always find loopholes when it comes to ladle(anyone remember that mix up of the SP teams dat 1 ladle! flex is such a kanker.)

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