2nd FFA, Signups open!!! March 23 (sun)

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delinquent
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Re: 2nd FFA, Signups open!!! March 23 (sun)

Post by delinquent »

ChrisD has it spot on. The trouble is implementing such a macro on a wiki page.

Gonzap
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Re: 2nd FFA, Signups open!!! March 23 (sun)

Post by Gonzap »

theo wrote:
Gonzap wrote:yo where's the data about the results/teams etc.? I wanted to check jericho's team and the brackets, how it ended and so.
It's now in the results page.
I can't see the teams tho :( I know jericho's but I also wanted to see the rest.

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Re: 2nd FFA, Signups open!!! March 23 (sun)

Post by THEred »

Gonzap wrote: I can't see the teams tho :( I know jericho's but I also wanted to see the rest.
this?
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Re: 2nd FFA, Signups open!!! March 23 (sun)

Post by sinewav »

There must be a way to use an IRC Bot for this. I'm going to just talk out-loud for a few minutes and see if I stir anyone's brain.

I think we can take a lesson from pickup. The FFA player-list, captains, and subs all seem to change in the minutes before teams are picked. How about we ignore a wiki sign-up completely and have players simply show up in an IRC channel at the time of the event (standard Ladle time)? For now let's call the channel #armagetron.holding. Here the players can submit their intent to play as either a captain, sub or regular player. Maybe something like this:

Code: Select all

!<command> <event> <captain/player/sub>
It could be as simple as "!add ffa p" (I want to be a player in the FFA). At a specified time (or through manual execution), the bot would automatically start the picking process. Here is where I don't know enough about IRC and bots to know if it is possible. Ideally, the bot suppresses all channel chatter and only allows the current captain to pick, reminding him/her every 15-30 seconds. The captain can see which players are available with a command like !playerpool and maybe remember who is on their team with !myteam, then !pick <player name>. When all the !add'ed players are picked, the bot would spit out the teams and everyone would immediately go to their servers and play.

See where I'm going with this? Maybe it would have to be done with a combination of Bot functions and admin intervention? A system like this could be used not just for FFA, but for any event, so I think it is worth trying to come up with something.


Also, I secretly want the FFA to be a "pickup tournament" with the same score and settings.

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takburger
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Re: 2nd FFA, Signups open!!! March 23 (sun)

Post by takburger »

sinewav wrote:There must be a way to use an IRC Bot for this. I'm going to just talk out-loud for a few minutes and see if I stir anyone's brain.

I think we can take a lesson from pickup. The FFA player-list, captains, and subs all seem to change in the minutes before teams are picked. How about we ignore a wiki sign-up completely and have players simply show up in an IRC channel at the time of the event (standard Ladle time)? For now let's call the channel #armagetron.holding. Here the players can submit their intent to play as either a captain, sub or regular player. Maybe something like this:

Code: Select all

!<command> <event> <captain/player/sub>
It could be as simple as "!add ffa p" (I want to be a player in the FFA). At a specified time (or through manual execution), the bot would automatically start the picking process. Here is where I don't know enough about IRC and bots to know if it is possible. Ideally, the bot suppresses all channel chatter and only allows the current captain to pick, reminding him/her every 15-30 seconds. The captain can see which players are available with a command like !playerpool and maybe remember who is on their team with !myteam, then !pick <player name>. When all the !add'ed players are picked, the bot would spit out the teams and everyone would immediately go to their servers and play.

See where I'm going with this? Maybe it would have to be done with a combination of Bot functions and admin intervention? A system like this could be used not just for FFA, but for any event, so I think it is worth trying to come up with something.


Also, I secretly want the FFA to be a "pickup tournament" with the same score and settings.
Whatever you do, when you have many team expect 1h pickup and play another day. because if you start the event one hour before Ladle, it'll be like: OMG one hour delay OMG OMG OMG I'm out. :lol: :lol:
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Re: 2nd FFA, Signups open!!! March 23 (sun)

Post by Gonzap »

THEred wrote:
Gonzap wrote: I can't see the teams tho :( I know jericho's but I also wanted to see the rest.
this?
Yep that's exactly what I was looking for, thank you :D

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Re: 2nd FFA, Signups open!!! March 23 (sun)

Post by bilbo baggins »

perhaps a google spreadsheet would work better than this? In that you put a players name from the list of all players and then that name is removed from the list, dont know whether thats possible, but for our blitz tournament for the ACL Titan used a spreadsheet and it was idiot proof in people knowing who has played who and whats left, in effect for FFA you would know who has been picked on what team, whos left to pick etc.

I cant back this theory up with any knowledge on the subject because i know **** all about google spreadsheet, but its a nice idea if its designed well :)

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delinquent
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Re: 2nd FFA, Signups open!!! March 23 (sun)

Post by delinquent »

Right, I have an idea.

Sine, you mentioned wanting similarities to pickup, which I think in essence is a good idea, but I still think there is the problem of player favouritism. Therefore, I propose the following amendments:

- Signups open the month prior to the tournament, as opposed to three, five or longer.
- The first two players of each team are selected entirely at random. The remaining players are picked via captain's choice.
- A bot is implemented to show remaining players, and the entire picking process is conducted in IRC
- The bot also silences everybody apart from the administration, and the captain currently in turn
- A separate channel is implemented for discussion. Anyone in the picking channel must also attend the chatting channel, or be removed. This rule strictly adhered to.


Thoughts?

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takburger
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Re: 2nd FFA, Signups open!!! March 23 (sun)

Post by takburger »

delinquent wrote:Right, I have an idea.

Sine, you mentioned wanting similarities to pickup, which I think in essence is a good idea, but I still think there is the problem of player favouritism. Therefore, I propose the following amendments:

- Signups open the month prior to the tournament, as opposed to three, five or longer.
- The first two players of each team are selected entirely at random. The remaining players are picked via captain's choice.
- A bot is implemented to show remaining players, and the entire picking process is conducted in IRC
- The bot also silences everybody apart from the administration, and the captain currently in turn
- A separate channel is implemented for discussion. Anyone in the picking channel must also attend the chatting channel, or be removed. This rule strictly adhered to.


Thoughts?
1: ok
2: nay picking make roughly fait teams, random does not.
3: aye dev pls
4: aye
5: since you pick through bot there is no need for discussion.
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sinewav
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Re: 2nd FFA, Signups open!!! March 23 (sun)

Post by sinewav »

We don't need a separate channel for discussion. Or we can just use #arma.tourneys. I really don't like the random players. Favoritism actually makes the teams more fair. Besides, people often pick people they like regardless of how good they are. And what if the randomization picked two of the best players for the first team, then their first pick was used to grab yet another ace player? Can you imagine the outrage?

I'm glad these ideas are coming together. Hopefully we can get a proof of concept channel+bot and test it out sometime in the next several weeks.

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takburger
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Re: 2nd FFA, Signups open!!! March 23 (sun)

Post by takburger »

but i'll again say that registering should be done on wiki.
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delinquent
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Re: 2nd FFA, Signups open!!! March 23 (sun)

Post by delinquent »

I agree that registration should be provided through the wiki only.

The problem that I have with choice based picking, Sine + tak, is that newer captains may well be discouraged from attending future tournaments by the simple act of picking a poor performing team through ignorance. This will drive down the popularity of the tournament, and my intention is to get as many players involved as feasible. This includes players who would otherwise be discouraged from fortress tournaments in general, where the FFA is designed to do the exact opposite.

I think a pickup tournament would be pretty awesome, but it's just that - a pickup[/] tournament. Not an FFA tournament. However, it would be pretty awesome to have a separate pickup tourney.

Regarding the risk of better players being distributed unevenly - I think that's going to happen regardless of how distribution is implemented. The idea of automated picking at least removes the human element, and replaces it entirely with chance. Therefore, nobody can be accused of favouritism, because it simply isn't possible.

I do empathise, however, with the niceties of captain's choice - which is why I tried to reach a compromise between the two.

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takburger
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Re: 2nd FFA, Signups open!!! March 23 (sun)

Post by takburger »

well, on FFA competitions, noobs are picked by captains who have made a good team before.

If you count on total noobs to build their own team it gonna be not fun at all, even with random picks.

The point of FFA is for new players to have a taste of great play, to have some useful advices from their fellow team members and to establish a name of their own within the community, its not to have easy time.

You know, FFA is about fort, fort is about tron, tron is about playing a game where you get owned like shit and still come online and play. FFA is clearly for our small fortress community to have fun in an tourney where everything can happen and for new players to get a super challenging experience.

It is not about having random stuff and fun, it is about maximizing challenge. (because our fun lay into the difficulty, or we would play candy crush)

Maximizing challenge of pros to carry their team, maximizing strategic thinking to get most out of one roster, maximizing the challenge for new players or lower skilled players to make a name, putting knowledge of people above all (the captain that know the best the community has better chances of winning).

It is a tourney, it is about greatness, it is not about lulz, it is srs bsness. :lol: :lol:
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Re: 2nd FFA, Signups open!!! March 23 (sun)

Post by sinewav »

takburger wrote:FFA is clearly for our small fortress community to have fun in an tourney where everything can happen and for new players to get a super challenging experience.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the FFA is a reaction the impossibility of new players having any real success in Ladle due to the extreme gap in skill between n00b and pro. Picking from a player pool allows for some agency in determining the match-ups. I don't think any part of it should be randomized away. Imagine how angry everyone will be the first time randomization stacks a team. The current "captains pick" system work perfectly, at least from what I can see based on the results of the two FFA events. Plus, you can't learn from your mistakes if a computer is making the choices for you.

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Re: 2nd FFA, Signups open!!! March 23 (sun)

Post by takburger »

sinewav wrote:
takburger wrote:FFA is clearly for our small fortress community to have fun in an tourney where everything can happen and for new players to get a super challenging experience.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the FFA is a reaction the impossibility of new players having any real success in Ladle due to the extreme gap in skill between n00b and pro. Picking from a player pool allows for some agency in determining the match-ups. I don't think any part of it should be randomized away. Imagine how angry everyone will be the first time randomization stacks a team. The current "captains pick" system work perfectly, at least from what I can see based on the results of the two FFA events. Plus, you can't learn from your mistakes if a computer is making the choices for you.
Well that could seem right. But the way you say it is totally wrong.

What you seem to mean is that, in Ladle there are the pros and there are the noobs. And they will never win Ladle coz they are noobs and need to be carried by pros, and that in FFA they can get carried. This is a twisted vision of that community. And I do not agree with it. (if you want we can talk about that but that would be off topic).

But I never agreed on randomization, I think it sucks because the teams are not fair then. I prefer to have wise captains, and an event that encourage captains to know the people and especially the lesser skilled.

On another subject, I was looking at FFA1 and FFA2. It is funny to see, DGM had a team at both events and was in finals those two events. And he had Fipp on both events. Looks like they can build a good teamplay around those 2 positions. Interesting.
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