CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

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F0RC3
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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by F0RC3 »

I shall comment on this again later, but simple answer

keep dz maybe extend time
increase flag capture points to 8 or 10
keep round win at 8
keep lines same length.

edit: fort physics ctf is okay if you make it so that you can't capture the flag while your enemy has yours. currently its poo in my opinion, but fun poo.

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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by Limitless »

I am personally completely against changing any part of CTF.

The DZ helps contain lag, and also it is used for strategy (like someone previously stated), for instance during a Brawl when you are the last person alive on your team, you try to hold out and prevent the opposing team from scoring until the DZ comes.

Also increasing the tail length would just encourage camping and holing. Plus it would take a ton of time to get used to as a defender and many people will get fed up and just stop playing CTF, causing CTF to continue to break down, until it dies completely.

With 5 people per team there will just be an extra player to either hole or camp, which would get very annoying, plus it would just make the tourney servers even laggier then they already are.

I personally feel this topic is very biased, considering most people posting are all Fort players who don't even play CTF that much.

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Kijutsu
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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by Kijutsu »

Get rid of DZ, more points for flags, less for kills.

Person above me is a bit dramatic, and everyone posting in this topic so far plays CTF regularly.

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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by Wind »

Mmmm not as regularly as you might think liz. I do agree that people posting on this topic seem to be more from the "fort community" but that is because you guys are used to it from the ladle. Now this is not to say that the forters should not have a say, but it is nice to see some from the previously unheard community speak up. There are a lot of good forters that participate in this tournament but there are also ctfers who participate in the tournament and just don't voice their opinion. You have to remember that previous tournaments were run by a single clan and not by the community.

Anyways here is what I think:
Keep the DZ: With all the binds that go about in ctf the lag gets pretty bad. In "normal Ww ctf" you do not experience the same effect because 1 there are less experienced players and 2 people make more of an effort in the brawl. The DZ is used tactically and I'm fine with extending the time, but I feel this will only make ctf feel even more lethargic.

5 Players Per Team: I'm not sure if any of you guys remember, but during the first couple of brawls we did have a debate on what the number per team should be. The 5th player in the game is just unnecessary. 4 is enough to have two defenders and two attackers (or what ever different strategy the team may have). With the 5th player you just add either a basecamper or a respawner.

Increasing tail length: I'm not sure I understand the reason why.. Would this not just make basecamping and defending even easier? I have not tried this yet, but if a defender is able to easily respawn his team and defend the flag then I feel that takes away from the strategy of the game. It gives the defender a choice: Save the flag or respawn the team

Scoring System: As mentioned above the current scoring system was made to prevent the infamous "mass suicide". I do see that the game is now focused more on round wins than flag captures and I do agree that is a problem. I feel that this is truly where all the complaints lie. The name of the game is Capture the Flag and I have seen many rounds go without a single flag capture from either side. If we could once again re-work the scoring system to make the game more flag based then people would not feel this way.
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-*inS*-
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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by -*inS*- »

Limitless wrote:I personally feel this topic is very biased, considering most people posting are all Fort players who don't even play CTF that much.
What does it say about CTF that a bunch of 'fort' players can win your equivalent of a ladle. :roll:
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Slickster
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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by Slickster »

I like compguy's setting ideas in his test servers...All should try them out.

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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by garisimo »

Instead of trying to find scoring solutions which have definitely changed the game from capture the flag to kill the enemy and prevent respawns.
I only have two suggestions: if we are keeping current settings than lets make it 5 on 5. If you want to accomodate for team suicides, then why not simply do like a negative score to the player/team that suicides for the win.

Just a thought.

PokeMaster
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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by PokeMaster »

Settings I would be a fan of:

limit_rounds 1000
limit_score 100
score_win 0
score_kill 1 (or 2)
score_flag 8 (or 10)

and then I think those should be tested with and without respawns. I think if respawns were to be deactivated, we'd see more strategic use of players, but then rounds would take much longer. So probably keep the res, but it'd be interesting to see how the game would function without it.

And I haven't tried any other tail lengths, so for the time being, I can't comment.
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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by KGS CGoban 3 »

After playing in the test server here are some comments:
1) the tails are WAY to long. Defense like this would be almost impossible to break
2) Team suicides/basecamping. I'm all for having unlimited rounds and have it be first to 100 points. I don't like how important basecamping has become and that's the best solution i've heard.
3) I like the Death Zone because it does seem to cut down on lag but I do like unlimited rounds.
4) When keeping the cycle_walls_length short the scores for flag should go back down to 4.


Summary:
CYCLE_WALLS_LENGTH 200
LIMIT_ROUNDS 1000
LIMIT_SCORE 100
SCORE_WIN 0-2
SCORE_KILL 1
SCORE_FLAG 4

ousous
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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by ousous »

DDMJ wrote:The easiest and most obvious fix:

Play CTF w/ Fort Physics instead!

/thread
This is probably the best post in this thread... a lot of you likely missed the point of it.

Stop trying to turn CTF into Fort, it's not.

changing tail length is changing the ctf that we've been playing for over 6 years for only the tourney. All the ctf servers use and have used before the standard ctf tail length.

To put it in perspective:

tail length will change everything about the game

Defence
Attack
Traps
Base camping
Flag Camping

With regards to DZ, I'm not against changing the DZ time (ie when it appears), or how long it takes for the DZ to kill everyone (sometimes you can score that last minute point with a slow dz)

Otherwise, a lot of strategies, and thus ctf in general, are/is based around the DZ. This is regardless of whether or not the DZ is a glitch or was accidentally added. Penicillin was accidentally discovered it doesn't mean it wasn't a positive thing.


The only thing I think should be UNchanged is the round win points. You read that correctly. It used to be 4 pts round win and was changed to 8 points, post destiny era. IMO it takes away from the name of the game (CAPTURE the flag) and you can basically focus on base camping and killing everyone on the other team- ending the rounds and matches quickly.


Don't get me wrong it's always great to have discussions. But some things that have made CTF what it is for the last 6+ years should remain that way. This may upset some people or some might take it the wrong way, but please don't and take my next statement objectively.

I believe it is important to ask some of the " elders' " opinions on this as well. People who are established for a while in CTF. Believe me I'm more than happy that a lot of people from fort/sumo have started playing ctf- it makes it that much more fun for us since you're already established players in your respective original game modes. However, those coming over to CTF should also realize that it is in fact a separate game mode from fort or sumo or df or whatever else they came from.

All in all, I believe the 'game mode' itself should remain the same (ie rubber, speed, tail length, etc). However, for tourney purposes I don't think it's a bad idea to change the points (flag or round) and dz (speed or time to activate), as long as we can agree it will lead to a smoother tournament WITHOUT forgetting the emphasis on the name of the came (CAPTURE THE FLAG).

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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by ousous »

Sorry for the double post.
sinewav wrote:
Right now CTF is very mundane. Everyone grinds, double-defs, base-camps when someone dies, then chews away at their opponent for the next few minutes until they get the round win. *Yawn*

This is why I think it needs to be a point game, and those points are based on flags, not round wins. I would even make it score_flag 10.
You were a top advocate of pushing round win to 8 points. You were not alone though, I'll give you that.
sinewav wrote:
I'm going to back up Titanoboa on all points. Of course, if I had it my way the physics would be different too (not Fort physics though, and not a new map either). But it's a good start. I would even make SCORE_WIN 8, since killing an entire team on a map with respawning is hard, and those that fail to live deserve it in a way, haha.
Taken from this thread: http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 0&start=45

There was even a poll done:

http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 60&t=21052

The results as of now (since anyone could go and change it after reading this) were:

Kill/flag/round win
1/4/2 - 5 votes
1/4/4 - 5 votes
1/4/8 - 6 votes

Anyone who has some background in statistics can accept that polls can be somewhat misleading.

What I mean by that is, although 1/4/8 had the most votes, 10/16 people wanted 4 points or less for round win, and thought that 8 points was too high. This poll has a pretty even distribution, and the best decision would have been to go with 1/4/4 instead. It's between either extreme (2 or 8) and has just as many votes.

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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by sinewav »

ousous wrote:You were a top advocate of pushing round win to 8 points. You were not alone though, I'll give you that.
Right, raising score_win was our first attempt to thwart team-suicide (originally Durka's idea in 12/08). It's clear now what the unintended consequences are -- long, boring rounds where teams are more interested in stopping the respawn than capturing flags. But as we've seen in Ladle, making the Brawl a point game instead of a round game removes and incentive for team-suicide, this removing the need for score_win to be higher than score_flag. If there is any change to the game, it needs to be this one.

No one is trying to turn CTF into Fortress; unless by "Fortress" you mean "a game with a highly successful tournament."
ousous wrote:I believe it is important to ask some of the " elders' " opinions on this as well. People who are established for a while in CTF.
BTW, I am a CTF elder. And I suggest doing away with round_limit and reducing score_win. But since you are in favor of reducing score_win and you have nothing to say about round_limit, I'll assume you're on board with this.

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F0RC3
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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by F0RC3 »

Okay so, i have more time now to make a post.

Death zone- should stay. its needed in a few situations and takes care of lag. i wouldn't mind extending it by a minute or two though, but it needs to stay. NO DZ IS A HORRIBLE IDEA. i had a match that lasted at least an hour because there was no dz 1vs4 against U. needless to say, i could just run around waiting for them to die on my line while i respawned them. bad idea.

4vs4- Ctf definitely needs to stay a 4v4 game during the brawl. 5 allows for a continuous respawner, or a third holer, which essentially means you could torp your way through a defense with ease. it needs to stay 4vs4.

Wall length-Increasing the length of the lines is just a bad idea, it makes defense too easy and will make attacking much harder than it is. It will also effect camping and make it much harder, you don't want to die just because you made one mistake and while trying to bd you get blocked every time or their/your line doesn't run out fast enough. Also it would make a base camp extremely easy to preform. Too much danger sine too much, unless everyone gets onboard with triple bind camping... Let them stay at 200

Score Flag- should definitely be raised, 8 points sounds like a good number to me, should make more focus on the flag.

Score round win- should stay the same. equivalent to 1 flag capture.

Score kill- 2 to prevent a team from holing over and over again without reprocussions.

Limit Round- This is a tough one. i suggest 6 rounds if the dz time is going to be increased. 8 rounds if its not. Unlimited rounds is just a bad idea to me, a match could easily take an hour or more.

Kyle- Kyle i'm sorry for completely shooting down your idea, but no thanks. two flags would cause too much trouble, and so would a base that large. it wouldn't be ctf anymore. the games would last forever, and you would have to double the amount of players.

limit score- should stay at 100, its a good score limit.

About respawns- I think the no respawn idea is a bad idea poke, i just imagine search and destroy in cod but imagine a 4+ minute time limit or infinite if dz is taken away. just seems bad and really boring for those who die by a simple mistake.
In call of duty there are wave spawns. so every 15 seconds it respawns the entire team.

so i was thinking maybe both teams respawn every 1 or 2 minutes that the base isn't touched by either team, touching the base will still respawn teammates. this will allow for basecamping but only for a short amount of time. also when a team has the opponents flag there wave spawn is turned off so that the other team can basecamp if necessarry(the wavespawn would allow for a holer to just spawn). not sure if this makes sense to you guys but i thought it was a good idea to stop focusing purely on stopping respawns, but only stopping them for a short period of time so a hole can be done, defense setup etc.

However changing the score may solve the respawn situation though. not sure, but wave spawn is just an idea and i don't even know if its possible to implement.

Thats all folks!

Thanks for reading

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compguygene
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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by compguygene »

Based on the replies in this thread, here is the current changed settings in CTF BRAWL (ID's Test Server)

Code: Select all

SCORE_FLAG 8
SCORE_WIN 8
SCORE_KILL 2
LIMIT_ROUNDS 10
WIN_ZONE_MIN_ROUND_TIME 300
I put in LIMIT_ROUNDS 10 so that if teams are evenly matched, aka low scoring, it will be 10 quick rounds, 5 minutes per round.
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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by sinewav »

Ok gene, that looks like a pretty good start. With the higher point values, a match shouldn't go all 10 rounds anyway, so it's like unlimited rounds.

I'm sure we can all agree to abandon the other ideas like walls_length 300 and no DZ, and focus on tweaking the score and rounds slightly. This seems like the least amount of change for the greatest benefit.

What say you all?

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