CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

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compguygene
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CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by compguygene »

I have just come to this forum after testing the following settings changes, and want to report back what I saw, and what server to check it out for yourself. The server is CTF Brawl (ID's test server)

Code: Select all

WALLS_LENGTH 300
No DZ
SCORE_WIN 8
SCORE_FLAG 8
SCORE_KILL 1
As sine had mentioned in the CTF Brawl 9 topic, the additional 100m makes it a whole lot more fun. Defending had a lot more possiblities, and we didn't miss having the unneeded DZ come up.
I have not had a chance to get full teams going to test the score settings, but will report back when I do.
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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by sinewav »

Yes, CTF needs a major overhaul. The other day I went on lagtest.net for research and found threads related to CTF problems dating back to Dec`09. One thing to consider is this: CTF is a hack. It co-opted the popular settings of the day. The DZ itself exists because of a bug -- a bug that was fixed over 2 years ago. There really hasn't been any serious attention paid to the gameplay due to CTF's relative unpopularity. It's virtually unchanged since it's inception, and it's more or less a novelty in Arma. But I'd like to see CTF get better and more popular; how about you? I do not propose changing the entire game, but it could benefit from incremental change to make it more competitive.

Major point: Scoring and Rounds. Because CTF is a timed game with only a few rounds, Team suicide quickly became a winning tactic. This has been slightly deterred with a change to score_win. But today, CTF is less about capturing flags and more about stopping respawns since you get more points and it's easier. I think this is bad. To fix this, I would remove the DZ since it doesn't need to be there; it's an artifact from a different time. Raise the flag score and make this a 100 point game instead of a timed, 5 round game.

Minor point: Physics. As gene mentioned, longer trails might be a good addition. Here's why I think so. Public CTF is a 5-player game. The cumulative effect of 5 players x 200 meter trails = 1000 meters of danger! Adding longer trails to a 4-player tournament means more danger.* I never would have thought this until I played CTF with longer trails a few days ago. It was great! Although, most people didn't notice -- even shoebat, who still didn't notice even after I pointed it out. One side effect is that it allows the defense to respawn teammates without leaving the flag completely vulnerable (well, if you're a good defender that is). I don't know if that's good or bad.



*I'd personally like CTF tournaments to be 5 players, but no one will go for that, haha.

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vov
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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by vov »

some mixed thoughts:

If it's currently about stopping respawns and you don't want that, make the basezone larger :)

Of course, longer tails also add more and longer basecamping.
Impossible basecamps will force the one whose flag has just been stolen to hole, and because respawns are then always possible, losing a player for a hole hurts much much less.
If it becomes a holing and hole-blocking-castle/speed-defense game, will you like that? ;)

I don't like the deathzone either, because it always comes by surprise and takes away chances from teams that maybe failed the 2nd and 3rd round and can't comeback because of the time limit there.

I'd like 5 players! More players are always fine :)

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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by Slickster »

Keep DZ...It's used strategically in a lot of situations...

I like that scoring.

Idk about that wall length...I feel like defending/holing would be lame...

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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by Agent007 »

I love the added wall length...the no dz I'm so so about, and I think the new scoring will work better

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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by Tru »

I am mostly with Slickster
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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by DDMJ »

The easiest and most obvious fix:

Play CTF w/ Fort Physics instead!

/thread

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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by compguygene »

Nice to see you are still lurking out there, Mr. Durka.

Well, I tend to side with sine on this one. No DZ and a better scoring system will make flags more valuable. Also, at this time, when both flags are taken, people tend to just go around killing each other but not focusing on the Flag Carrier much. CTF was not created with a DZ as the intention. The DZ was added to address a bug that is fixed. I really think you guys should play a match or 2 in the server I put up, and then come back and critique it.

Also, anybody that wants to have Admin in the CTF Brawl (ID Test Server) just ask. I want people to be able to experiment when players are gathered in the server. After playing a lot of CTF in the last month, I also think CTF is overdue for an overhaul. It would make a lot of sense for the Ww server to stay as the "Classic CTF" server. But, it's past time to look at diverging the settings to something better.
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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by Tobe »

sinewav wrote:One thing to consider is this: CTF is a hack. It co-opted the popular settings of the day. The DZ itself exists because of a bug -- a bug that was fixed over 2 years ago.
Not sure what exactly the bug was, but I know that the DZ also served to prevent a sever amount of lag when it was 5v5. The lag was caused by the usual fast turning of players (back when many of the players actually double binded that quickly). Even in 4v4, matches with two teams of heavy binders became extremely laggy at about 3 minutes after the round start. I suppose now that less players play like that and servers are a bit better, maybe the DZ could come at a later time. I feel taking it away completely, though, is a bad idea (especially considering the off chance that a round lasts the whole match; there would be no real break for players).
compguygene wrote:I have just come to this forum after testing the following settings changes, and want to report back what I saw, and what server to check it out for yourself. The server is CTF Brawl (ID's test server)

Code: Select all

WALLS_LENGTH 300
No DZ
SCORE_WIN 8
SCORE_FLAG 8
SCORE_KILL 1
As sine had mentioned in the CTF Brawl 9 topic, the additional 100m makes it a whole lot more fun. Defending had a lot more possiblities, and we didn't miss having the unneeded DZ come up.
I also feel that the scoring system be changed, but not like this. I'd rather keep the DZ, as I wrote before, and change the score values to emphasize the flag. The only reason why score_win was changed to a higher value was because of the "mass suicide" incident (well suicide in general, too). It took focus off of the flag and more on the base, which i find to be bogus. I would have the scoring like it was before:

SCORE_WIN 4 (shouldn't be 8, so that more attention is placed on the flag)
SCORE_FLAG 8 (should be worth much more than a win.)
SCORE_KILL 2 (should be a significant amount compared to the flag to prevent unproductive holing)
LIMIT_ROUND 6

It brings importance to the flag, as well as makes the players mind the 100 point limit (seeing as that is rarely reached in BRAWL anymore).
sinewav wrote:As gene mentioned, longer trails might be a good addition. Here's why I think so. Public CTF is a 5-player game. The cumulative effect of 5 players x 200 meter trails = 1000 meters of danger! Adding longer trails to a 4-player tournament means more danger.
Well, without changing the map, longer trails means more impossible defenses and longer periods of base camping. I'm not worried as much about the defense, though, as I am with the fact that there will be longer periods of base camping.
sinewav wrote:I'd personally like CTF tournaments to be 5 players, but no one will go for that, haha.
Maybe we could make every third BRAWL a 5-player contest?
compguygene wrote:Well, I tend to side with sine on this one. No DZ and a better scoring system will make flags more valuable. Also, at this time, when both flags are taken, people tend to just go around killing each other but not focusing on the Flag Carrier much.
Well, I know that I and most of my team still does. As players play CTF more, they will find easier ways to kill a flag carrier.



I'd say more, but I forgot what I was going to write when I started making this post.
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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by compguygene »

Tobe wrote:I also feel that the scoring system be changed, but not like this. I'd rather keep the DZ, as I wrote before, and change the score values to emphasize the flag. The only reason why score_win was changed to a higher value was because of the "mass suicide" incident (well suicide in general, too). It took focus off of the flag and more on the base, which i find to be bogus. I would have the scoring like it was before:

SCORE_WIN 4 (shouldn't be 8, so that more attention is placed on the flag)
SCORE_FLAG 8 (should be worth much more than a win.)
SCORE_KILL 2 (should be a significant amount compared to the flag to prevent unproductive holing)
LIMIT_ROUND 6
I didn't think my scoring system was really a good idea at all, nice to see one that makes sense, same with the rounds. Ok, I get your point about the DZ remaining in. The question becomes, how long to see a DZ? Currently its set to be 5 minutes, which in 6 rounds yields 30 minute rounds. Here are the changes I made for the CTF BRAWL (ID's Test Server)

Code: Select all

SCORE_FLAG 8
SCORE_WIN 4
SCORE_KILL 2
LIMIT_ROUNDS 6
WIN_ZONE_MIN_ROUND_TIME 300
WALLS_LENGTH 300
SP_WALLS_LENGTH 300
CYCLE_WALLS_LENGTH 300
I have the WIN_ZONE_MIN_ROUND_TIME 300 so I can easily change it if needed.
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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by sinewav »

sinewav wrote:The other day I went on lagtest.net for research and found threads related to CTF problems dating back to Dec`08.
^Just correcting my statement.

@Tobe: I can't be bothered to look at the reason for the DZ right now, but I think it was because zone_objects were building up in memory; something about flag blinking maybe. Not important.Bug is fixed and massive double-binding still causes lag. :wink:


How about this compromise?:

We keep the DZ, but we make it unlimited rounds. This way a team must score 100 points. It prevents team suicide (we just had this discussion in Ladle). We can reduce score_win to whatever, and raise score_flag to something reasonable. Three years ago, Durka had the idea of...

SCORE_KILL 2
SCORE_FLAG 8

...essentially doubling points to make 100 an easier target to hit -- and we might want to make it easier. I saw a round today that lasted 5 minutes and only 12 points were scored between the 2 teams (6 each)!

Also, the reason why CTF tournaments are 4v4 is because of lag. But here is the thing: I don't see any more lag in public 5v5 games than I do in 4v4 tournaments. I think the "lag" is psychological because you are worried about it more, you notice it more. Most servers nowadays can handle the load.

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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by kyle »

why not make it 5 vs 5, but that does not mean it has to be the old map.
I speak of a new map, a map that has 2 flags. there are plenty of settings to handle multiple flags now. There used to be a bug with having more than 1 flag per team, that was eliminated a year or more ago.

Just a crazy Idea, but if people are willing to test it, I will make it.
Note: flag defenders should not be able to touch the base zone (if needed); Also i would probably keep the general shape of the current map. (mine drawing is a bit distorted)
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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by Tobe »

@compguygene: The wall length being 300m still bugs me, but I'll try it out and see how it goes.
sinewav wrote:How about this compromise?:

We keep the DZ, but we make it unlimited rounds. This way a team must score 100 points. It prevents team suicide (we just had this discussion in Ladle). We can reduce score_win to whatever, and raise score_flag to something reasonable. Three years ago, Durka had the idea of...

SCORE_KILL 2
SCORE_FLAG 8

...essentially doubling points to make 100 an easier target to hit -- and we might want to make it easier. I saw a round today that lasted 5 minutes and only 12 points were scored between the 2 teams (6 each)!
The problem I see with unlimited rounds (when teams become more competitive) is the chance of matches taking a whole hour, or maybe even more, to get to 100.

For example, during an old Ww hosted tourney, there was a 4v3 match: 4 Ww and 3 R. Unfortunately, WwLevi and his team used a triple defense strategy that tourney; Levi and I were the only attackers nearly the whole game, meaning there was almost no holing going on. The match ended with the highest score at around 40-50 after 5 rounds, even with each kill being 2 points and flags being 8.

Maybe we could extend the DZ by a minute and give more time that way? I don't like the idea of a match potentially taking forever.
kyle wrote:why not make it 5 vs 5, but that does not mean it has to be the old map.
I speak of a new map, a map that has 2 flags. there are plenty of settings to handle multiple flags now. There used to be a bug with having more than 1 flag per team, that was eliminated a year or more ago.
Currently in BRAWL, to capture a flag, you need to have yours. Adding two more would probably overcomplicate the game. And making the flags capturable without having your own destroys CTF strategically (I have played like this before)
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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by sinewav »

Tobe wrote:...there was a 4v3 match...there was almost no holing going on. The match ended with the highest score at around 40-50 after 5 rounds...
I know, I really thought the round I saw today with 12 points was terribly boring. Increasing the number of players should break this up a little (you described an extra boring 4v3). I think it's a good idea to stimulate scoring by any means possible.

Right now CTF is very mundane. Everyone grinds, double-defs, base-camps when someone dies, then chews away at their opponent for the next few minutes until they get the round win. *Yawn*

This is why I think it needs to be a point game, and those points are based on flags, not round wins. I would even make it score_flag 10.

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Re: CTF Brawl 10 Settings Discussion

Post by Cody »

DDMJ wrote:The easiest and most obvious fix:

Play CTF w/ Fort Physics instead!

/thread
+1 anyone who has played durka map knows this is the only way!

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