Where is the Ladle (and Fortress) heading in the future?

A place for threads related to tournaments and the like, and things related too.

Moderator: Light

Post Reply
User avatar
INW
Reverse Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 1950
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:10 pm
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA

Re: The Ladle has lost its spark

Post by INW »

DDMJ wrote:
Concord wrote:
INW/Durka wrote: A team who kills 5 enemy players and manages to only lose 3 obviously outplayed the enemy and deserves to win the round.
Of course a 3v1 ends the round quick with an easy hole and keep everything moving.

They deserve to, but they shouldn't be guaranteed it. This is like saying that a team that is up by two touchdowns entering the fourth quarter deserves to win, so we'll just call the game and not play the quarter. We all have better things to do anyway. Or a team that is up 3 runs entering the ninth inning deserves to win, so let's just skip the ninth. Just because you deserve to, doesn't mean you will. To win you must kill 6 or conquer the zone.
Your analogies support my claim. I never said they were guaranteed a win. It's like, (using a football analogy again), if a running back is running through the defense and in front of him are 3 defenders. They should be able to take him down if they don't do anything stupid. Similarly, in fort, in a 3v1 situation, the team of 3 should be able to win the round, but they could mess up or the defense could cover the hole in time. I've seen it happen a decent amount of times.

@Insa: 5v5 is too small. It's hard to get a big player advantage when the number of players per team decreases.
A similar point I was going to make.
Ya, the team ahead by 2 touchdowns should win, but they might **** up and lose.
A team 3v1 should win, but they might **** up (hole fail) and lose.

What did ya know?

User avatar
teen
Round Winner
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 2:27 am

Re: Where is the Ladle (and Fortress) heading in the future?

Post by teen »

I support 1v2 unconquerable. It will raise more of the individual skill than the team skill. You allow more skill based fights than just fast paced to the point ganking. In a 1v2 unconq the 2 can shrink the 1 instead of just taking a small piece.

The defender worked hard to stay alive and having the enemy conquer the zone with the little bits of it thats visible really brings down the defender..

Also holing will be cut to a short. Because no one would want to hole and not be able to conquer the zone so individual skills and even team skills will be implemented much much more.
Image

User avatar
INW
Reverse Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 1950
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:10 pm
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA

Re: Where is the Ladle (and Fortress) heading in the future?

Post by INW »

I believe more in teamwork than individual talent.

Team game.

User avatar
-*inS*-
Round Winner
Posts: 320
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:31 pm

Re: Where is the Ladle (and Fortress) heading in the future?

Post by -*inS*- »

INW wrote:I believe more in teamwork than individual talent.

Team game.
Instead of simply holing which requires just a brain, you need to use actual teamwork to kill the defender or get in the zone.
Image

User avatar
akira
Core Dumper
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Neo-Tokyo

Re: Where is the Ladle (and Fortress) heading in the future?

Post by akira »

There is a simple physical change which would dramatically improve the fortress experience for the better: lower rubber to a value between 2-3.
More deaths, faster shrinks, rising skill-level, less adjusts etc.

PS: 1v2 unconquerable is so stupid, I just refuse to post any argument about it.

User avatar
INW
Reverse Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 1950
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:10 pm
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA

Re: Where is the Ladle (and Fortress) heading in the future?

Post by INW »

akira wrote:There is a simple physical change which would dramatically improve the fortress experience for the better: lower rubber to a value between 2-3.
More deaths, faster shrinks, rising skill-level, less adjusts etc.

PS: 1v2 unconquerable is so stupid, I just refuse to post any argument about it.
+2

User avatar
MrsKsr
Shutout Match Winner
Posts: 807
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:37 am
Location: Paris
Contact:

Re: Where is the Ladle (and Fortress) heading in the future?

Post by MrsKsr »

Um, am I missing something here? Fortress is, before anything else, a team game. How would changing the settings to make it more focussed on individual skill improve the game mode and what it's about? You're talking about change, but change for the better or for the worst?

This isn't exactly the first time things like holing and sweepboxes have won a ladle, so I have no idea why it's being blown up like this now. Perhaps instead of changing the settings to something ridiculous like 1v2 unconquerable, we should all, as teams and clans, come up with other strategies, as quite clearly we all have done in the past... Or go with akira's idea. Why should we make the settings even more defence oriented when the defences of choice nowadays are already difficult enough to attack without holes...

Correct me if I'm wrong but, in any fortress type game the base plays a big part... By implementing such settings the chance of capturing a base becomes smaller, how is this good? Ladle rounds are already long enough, this would only make it worse, idgi.
"You may say I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one;
I hope some day you will join us, and the world can live as one"


“Too often we underestimate the power of a touch, a smile, a kind word, a listening ear, an honest compliment, or the smallest act of caring, all of which have the potential to turn a life around.”

I believe that to truly love is the ultimate expression of the will to live.

User avatar
-*inS*-
Round Winner
Posts: 320
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:31 pm

Re: Where is the Ladle (and Fortress) heading in the future?

Post by -*inS*- »

Who started the myth you need super teamwork skills to hole 3v1? It's honestly the easiest thing in the game. It takes a lot more teamwork to hole then 2v1 out sumo/kill the defender, or shrink him.
Image

User avatar
Kijutsu
Match Winner
Posts: 676
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:37 pm

Re: Where is the Ladle (and Fortress) heading in the future?

Post by Kijutsu »

Don't need super teamwork, but it's a team effort nonetheless.

Concord
Reverse Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 1661
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:24 pm

Re: Where is the Ladle (and Fortress) heading in the future?

Post by Concord »

1v2 unconquerable raises the value of individual skill relative to the value of player advantage.

1v2 unconquerable also raises the value of team skill relative to the value of player advantage.

It does not change the relationship between team skill and individual skill.

Concord
Reverse Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 1661
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:24 pm

Re: Where is the Ladle (and Fortress) heading in the future?

Post by Concord »

MrsKsr wrote:Um, am I missing something here? Fortress is, before anything else, a team game. How would changing the settings to make it more focussed on individual skill improve the game mode and what it's about? You're talking about change, but change for the better or for the worst?
There are no proposals I have read that would reduce the amount of teamwork required.
This isn't exactly the first time things like holing and sweepboxes have won a ladle, so I have no idea why it's being blown up like this now. Perhaps instead of changing the settings to something ridiculous like 1v2 unconquerable, we should all, as teams and clans, come up with other strategies, as quite clearly we all have done in the past... Or go with akira's idea. Why should we make the settings even more defence oriented when the defences of choice nowadays are already difficult enough to attack without holes...
Because then teams will need to attack more and defend less in order to win.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, in any fortress type game the base plays a big part... By implementing such settings the chance of capturing a base becomes smaller, how is this good? Ladle rounds are already long enough, this would only make it worse, idgi.
It doesn't change the chances at all, because fortress zones are not conquered by chance.

User avatar
INW
Reverse Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 1950
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:10 pm
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA

Re: Where is the Ladle (and Fortress) heading in the future?

Post by INW »

Concord wrote:1v2 unconquerable raises the value of individual skill relative to the value of player advantage.

1v2 unconquerable also raises the value of team skill relative to the value of player advantage.

It does not change the relationship between team skill and individual skill.
What? Where is this evidence?

I believe:

1v2 unconquerable lowers the value of individual skill relative to the value of player advantage. (Oh man, imma camp and wait for them 2 attackers to just die)

1v2 unconquerable also lowers the relationship between team skill and individual skill. (how the hell would it raise it? what the?)

See what I did there?

User avatar
MrsKsr
Shutout Match Winner
Posts: 807
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:37 am
Location: Paris
Contact:

Re: Where is the Ladle (and Fortress) heading in the future?

Post by MrsKsr »

Meh, you are acting like there are only a limited amount of strategies in fort and that they've all already been thought of. Seems to me like a lazy way out of trying hard to beat these things and bring more strats to the table yourself. Pretty sure this can be done without changing settings...

The way the game is played has evolved and will continue to do so, deal with it by evolving yourself, not trying to condemn those who are embracing the newer fortress strats by looking down on them. The settings don't need to be changed so substantially over something so trivial. Many of us 'fell in love' with fortress the way it is now. Why would you want to ruin that?
"You may say I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one;
I hope some day you will join us, and the world can live as one"


“Too often we underestimate the power of a touch, a smile, a kind word, a listening ear, an honest compliment, or the smallest act of caring, all of which have the potential to turn a life around.”

I believe that to truly love is the ultimate expression of the will to live.

Concord
Reverse Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 1661
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:24 pm

Re: Where is the Ladle (and Fortress) heading in the future?

Post by Concord »

INW wrote: What? Where is this evidence?

I believe:

1v2 unconquerable lowers the value of individual skill relative to the value of player advantage. (Oh man, imma camp and wait for them 2 attackers to just die)

1v2 unconquerable also lowers the relationship between team skill and individual skill. (how the hell would it raise it? what the?)

See what I did there?

Where is the evidence! Where's yours? There's no evidence, this isn't some trial. We're discussing the merits and drawbacks of an idea that hasn't been tried.


1v2 unconq raises both because it takes more team and individual skill to capture the zone and it takes a greater numerical advantage which makes player advantage less important relative to skill and teamwork

Concord
Reverse Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 1661
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:24 pm

Re: Where is the Ladle (and Fortress) heading in the future?

Post by Concord »

MrsKsr wrote:Meh, you are acting like there are only a limited amount of strategies in fort and that they've all already been thought of. Seems to me like a lazy way out of trying hard to beat these things and bring more strats to the table yourself. Pretty sure this can be done without changing settings...

The way the game is played has evolved and will continue to do so, deal with it by evolving yourself, not trying to condemn those who are embracing the newer fortress strats by looking down on them. The settings don't need to be changed so substantially over something so trivial. Many of us 'fell in love' with fortress the way it is now. Why would you want to ruin that?
I am not acting like that. I could list a bunch of things that haven't been tried, and I could submit ten more that no one has thought of before. It doesn't matter, they won't get implemented. The math doesn't work out.

Stop name calling and discuss the issue, not what I am or am not acting like.

Some of us started playing when it was 8v8 or when there was a DZ. neither of those things exist anymore, the game changes. That's part of it. Holes have changed size, scoring has changed. Round limit is gone. Things change.

Post Reply