Where is the Ladle (and Fortress) heading in the future?

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prettylights
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Re: The Ladle has lost its spark

Post by prettylights »

DDMJ wrote: That is a dumb statistic. You could also way we've won 2 of the last 6 ladles. That statistic looks a lot better now amirite?
It was probably uncalled for yeah, but I don't think you can really say 2 of the last 6 is as encompassing as 2 of the last 21 and pass it off as the same statistic. Why would you exclude what you took part in? It looks better but its not as representative of your attempts. That's like saying that winning 3 of 4 tries is the same as winning 3 in the last 49 attempted at. Has nothing to do with how well your team is playing currently, but the winning statistics aren't equally dumb.
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Re: The Ladle has lost its spark

Post by PokeMaster »

I had lots of fun this last ladle, and mostly in the matches against SP's sweepbox! Then again, I was a sweeper myself, but there's still a lot of fun to be had in chasing enemies around and trying to pull a quick one on them.

Oh, and also, I had more cuts this ladle than I've ever had in any other ladle. (2 I think.)
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Re: The Ladle has lost its spark

Post by DDMJ »

I did it to show the opposite end of the spectrum. He said 2 out of 21...obviously that means we won that 22nd one. In fact, 5 of out of the last 28 if you want to keep going (which sucks :P).

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Re: The Ladle has lost its spark

Post by Nelhybel »

INW wrote:Pls don't take that seriously...though it is statistical.
INW was trying to crack a joke, no need to jump on him over it.

All the harsh responses in this topic as well as the predictions ones lead one to believe everything is being taken a bit too seriously, amirite?
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Re: The Ladle has lost its spark

Post by PokeMaster »

w/e guys, R's won 2 of the last 49. Beat it.
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prettylights
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Re: The Ladle has lost its spark

Post by prettylights »

you havent played in 49 ladles meister
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Re: The Ladle has lost its spark

Post by PokeMaster »

there in spirit .
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akira
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Re: The Ladle has lost its spark

Post by akira »

I do not play in the sumo tournaments, so the ladle is as exciting as ever.

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Re: The Ladle has lost its spark

Post by Word »

We are still a relatively young team whose members are becoming adults now, and that's why we'll keep having problems during the next ladles. However, I hope once this time is over and our generation is fully grown up, we won't be outnumbered again.

Since there are so many sumo tourneys I rarely take part in one (the last one actually the first time that I took part in an 1v1 sumo tourney). If they get on my nerves I just don't take part. I'm about to organize two (hopefully) regular tournaments for HR and Dog Fight (where 'open' is enforced by the settings, of course), and I'm going to use the Ladle's template (that's the same Tru and Wind did when they started the CTF Brawl). I just want to give them the first structure though, they won't need me if they want more.

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Re: The Ladle has lost its spark

Post by dariv »

Seems for most people the ladle has not lost its spark. With all the mess of random sumo tournaments of unknown formats, ladle is the one constant enjoyable competition in this game for me. Hopefully it never ends.

ps. pLx has won 0 of the last 0 ladles... that's a 100% record ftw.
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theroze
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Re: The Ladle has lost its spark

Post by theroze »

For me it's still like if you fail in one ladle(s), you want to come up with different tactics and surprise everyone (which we did last ladle) :D
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Re: The Ladle has lost its spark

Post by PokeMaster »

Actually, in a peculiar way, the rise of the sumo tournaments reinforces the direction that the ladle has taken. As holing is now almost a necessity to break into strongly fortified defenses, having good sumoers on the team is becoming more and more invaluable.
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Re: The Ladle has lost its spark

Post by INW »

DDMJ wrote:I did it to show the opposite end of the spectrum. He said 2 out of 21...obviously that means we won that 22nd one. In fact, 5 of out of the last 28 if you want to keep going (which sucks :P).
It is just like sports.

The blah team has won 13 of their last 14 games! This obviously tells you they have also won 13 of their last 15 games, at least, or it would have said 14 of their last 15 games.

Or team blah has lost 12 straight and 14 of their last 15 games. That 13th game was obviously a win and that 16th game was also a win.

Now let's put it to the ladle. TX has won 2 of their last 21 ladles!

Simple statistics!

I've won 2 of my last 8 ladles, and also won 2o of my last 19 ladles. :P

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Re: The Ladle has lost its spark

Post by Gonzap »

DDMJ wrote:
Mkay1 wrote:Competitive fort is boring. The only reason teams play now is to win, not for fun. Fun can not be achieved except by winning, which often occurs in a dull fashion of waiting.
This part is very true. Go back 4-5 years ago and boy, competitive fort was waaaaay different.
VorTeX`' wrote:True , andd all these sumo torneys. We need some more fort then just ladle.
I think that's the main/big point I was hitting at. Sumo, sumo, sumo sumo. The Ladle had been around for quite some time before sumo tournaments began. Granted, the Ladle wasn't as popular back then as it is now.
Competitive fort is not boring, actually is pretty exciting, even though I agree it was more skillful before and now it's more tactical. It's just a different way of excitment. For example, I had a lot of fun playing mYm even when we lost, and I was damn happy even though we lost, because it was indeed fun.

About sumo tourneys, I think they are the main reason why people like ladles even more every time they play. There are so many sumo tourneys that people wait for ladle like the BIG event of the month. People actually give a damn if you won the 1v1 sb or the tst. But if you win the ladle, man that's so much more important. You are the best team for a whole month, nothing can be compared to that.

Ladle has not lost it's spark, it just changed, whenever before it was bursts of a flamethrower now it's more like constant fire from both teams. The best tactic wins. That's it.

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þsy
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Re: The Ladle has lost its spark

Post by þsy »

The majority of pro-ladle people so far in this discussion have been mYm members. As someone who also played a full ladle 49, I'll share a different perspective:

I feel partly responsible for the development of these dreaded sweep boxes. Of course they've been around a long time, but it wasn't until our last ladle win (Ladle 46) when the 'speed box' came about. Since then they've infiltrated there way into about 50% of the major competing teams (unk, mym, sp + others I've missed).

During ladle 49, I loved doing the sweep box for the first two matches. Me and nubilous developed our own version of the step sweep box, and personally I think it's the most effective yet - it takes 4 minutes to break down when done most effectively, whereas the speed box lasts for 2.5 minutes. We then turned that into a double defence which gave us another 2 minutes before the defence was vulnerable to being holed.

But as I said, after two matches, the fun of seeing my creation's effectiveness wore off, and I soon realised that I was bored as hell. I then went on to play for 6 hours in total - something I've done before in ladle. But by the time I got to the final, I just wanted to quit. I know longer cared about winning, I wanted to stop! So I've decided to never be a part of a sweep box again haha.

I've said in a previous post - which is a common theory - about ladle getting defensive, then offensive, then defensive again etc. - and I'd like to believe this to be true(I'll go into ladle 50 with this attitude anyway with some new ideas up my sleeve). But it seems even amongst those who have pushed this idea, there seems to be a worry that this may not be true in this instance, and that this could be the start a new fortress style (which in a lot of people's opinions really sucks).

Problems with the sweep box
- The sweep box is a fantastic and effective method of holding off the enemy attackers, giving your attackers time to kill sweepers and get a player advantage. However, if there are two sweep boxes, then it renders 6 or more players redundant whilst you wait for one of the boxes to collapse.

Two sweep boxes of equal measure cancel each other out, but in order to recognise this and both stop so gameplay can continue at a faster rate, you need to have a mutual agreement which no team wants as we all want to win! Patience then wears thin and players start to slide or time out and other factors which don't usually cause such a problem become twice as troublesome, as you're playing for twice as long.

Solutions
- I think for the sake of tradition, we should leave everything as it is and allow for a more 'offensive' ladle to reveal itself in Ladle 50. As I said, I have some groovy ideas to try out, and I'm sure everyone else has a few tricks to pull out themselves. However, if it does become a repeat of this ladle, then I suggest we do one of two things:

- Change the physics: I have no idea how this would help, but it has been suggested. Personally I think it's a stupid idea, and any changes that are made should be tested in a fort tournament outside of the ladle.

- Create a mutual agreement: If we all made a committment to not using sweep boxes at all, then we could continue with fortress as it was was when it was last enjoyable. If teams can recognise this fact
Two sweep boxes of equal measure cancel each other out
then we can probably all agree to do this (new ideas for better sweep boxes we be copied, and eventually the optimum sweep box will dominate).

Much like countries with nuclear weapons, who will be the first to disarm? I haven't spoken to SP about this at all, so I cannot speak on their behalf, but.. If someone liked this idea and decided to make a thread, then team leaders could consult their clans/teams and then agree to it or not.

As said by others, making sweep boxes illegal would not work. However, an agreement from each team would I think. We are a small enough community to be able to hold team's to account. If everyone agrees, then we should be able to kill sweep boxes for good.

However, as I said - I don't think any of these suggestions should be implemented until after ladle 50. Let nature run it's course, then we'll see. But I for one vow to never be in another sweep box again!

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