Wager Tournaments (Split)

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Cody
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Wager Tournaments (Split)

Post by Cody »

Split from Flex's Fortress Cup.

My input for a full on fair prize tournament.


-Everyone who enters should pay a fee to the tournament account(like 3.50 USD via PayPal ( the tournament paypal account should be verified so it can send out the winning payment)

-It should be 16 team bracket(96 entrees aloud)
96 x 3.50 = USD 336.00....336/6(amount of players splitting the reward) = 56 dollars per winning player.

-Players should be randomized to teams based on their positions they play

-Players after paying the tournament fee should list their best to worst positions on the official wiki + forum topic (you need to post prof that you paid 3.50 to the tournament paypal account*a simple screenshot will verifty + the owner of the tournament account will double check to make sure to have gotten your payment* there's also a way to send a note/comment with your payment, you should list your tron name + GID)

-When 96 entrees is hit(may I remind you that the date will already be establish before sign-ups open) then all the names will be randomized into teams.

-Play that day and see who wins, Opening round - Semi final is best of 3 and Final is best of 5.

what ya think?

To be honest, I think a prize tournament would work well in a one man or small team winning tournament(like 1v1 sumo / Sumo Bar / CTF Brawl / 4v4 fort / WST) the winning prize is much bigger and also you could reward 2nd and 3rd place with cash.

Food for thought, Sumo bar, make it 5.00 USD per entree
make it a 16 server bracket
16x8 = 128 entrees( I believe with the winning cash being so high we can get this many )
128x5.00= 640.00 dollars prize money!
Opening - Semifinals- One match to make it through top 4 only
Finals - First person to win 2 matches

1st Place - 640/1.05 = 610 USD Winning Prize
2nd place - 30/1.2 = 25 USD
3rd place - 5 USD(entree fee back)

to claim the prize you must have a payal account
Last edited by Z-Man on Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Split on request. Useful discussion certainly, but too broad for the original topic.

~Loki
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Re: Flex's Fortress Cup

Post by ~Loki »

Your all so willingly to just give up your information to some stranger you know online without any confirmation or legal protection, the idea of giving someone money and being totally dependent on every aspect of how much wa actually gained how do u know the winners allgot their amount how can you assure the person. Doesn't take off with what seems to be $600 based on codys calculations. where it seems to be an awesome idea it just seems risky to many hidden factors to consider don't you think but also isn't there a fee for accepting transactions on paypal how much does that add up to.

But ofcourse if u get it up and running I'll play lol
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Cody
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Re: Flex's Fortress Cup

Post by Cody »

~Loki wrote:Your all so willingly to just give up your information to some stranger you know online without any confirmation or legal protection, the idea of giving someone money and being totally dependent on every aspect of how much wa actually gained how do u know the winners allgot their amount how can you assure the person. Doesn't take off with what seems to be $600 based on codys calculations. where it seems to be an awesome idea it just seems risky to many hidden factors to consider don't you think but also isn't there a fee for accepting transactions on paypal how much does that add up to.

But ofcourse if u get it up and running I'll play lol

you have legal protection.... ever heard of Ebay(99% of payments are made via PayPal)

1. Fees are waved when sending paypayl to paypal account.
2. You NEED a VERIFIED paypal account to receive cash and cash out
3. Your address and home number are not shown if you don't want them too.
4. IF this would ever be implemented, I'm sure a system would be put in place to show proof of payment & proof of payout.
5. What info you talking about anyway? there is no way for ANYONE other then paypal, to see your credit card number and bank account numbers.
6. The tournament holder account can be held accountable(by law) by PayPal Terms and Service.
The tournament holder account isn't going to be some random 14 yr old that plays tron, its going to be someone over the age of 21, that has a bank account and credit card and can confirm their address and such(the tournament account will be verified) AND all entree fees will ONLY be accepted from Verified PayPal Accounts

I personally use PayPal when selling and buying on Ebay and I love it.\

Actually just remembering, due to Legal Issues, the tournaments will have to be held for 18+ only. Tron actually falls into gambling other then a sporting event in legal terms(nvm did some research on what legally a sporting event has to be)

Flex and Oddeuro might need to be aware of this lol.

Just to chime in, online gambling laws are active in these states
Illinois, Indiana, Louisiana, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, South Dakota, and Washington.

After doing some more research it seems like pretty much US prohibits any online gambling(the states listed above are the ones that have a specific gambling law(i.e just placing a "bet")
the federal law actually doesn't prohibit you placing the "bet", it just means you cannot HOST a pool of some sort.


Good News, Tron Is considered a sporting event, and the fee to paid has to be an entry fee and the payout has to be a legal transaction. So just forget the couple of lines i posted :D

oddeuro
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Re: Wager Tournaments (Split)

Post by oddeuro »

it isn't a bet, and did you read upon other international laws? Worst case scenario if it violated a law the servers could be all euro (since most of the teams that will sign up will be heavily eu stacked) I don't see how tron is considered gambling or even what we're doing as a bet. o0

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ElmosWorld
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Re: Wager Tournaments (Split)

Post by ElmosWorld »

Betting is still technically gambling in the US.

EDIT: You are betting on yourself to win. I believe it is a bet.
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Flex
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Re: Wager Tournaments (Split)

Post by Flex »

The Sumo one would work and you're right in regards to a monetary reward being best suited for something like Sumo or an individual tournament, but I really wanted to do Fortress.

Anyway, I don't think it's gambling or betting. There's only an entry fee and I don't think that classifies as betting. You're paying your fee to participate.

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sinewav
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Re: Wager Tournaments (Split)

Post by sinewav »

Flex wrote:Anyway, I don't think it's gambling or betting.
Flex is totally right. Betting/gambling would be if people wagered on the outcome of match. The entry fees are considered necessary to cover the cost of the tournament (server rental, administration), and the cash prize it just that, a prize. If anything you would simply have to pay a tax on your winnings.

Cody
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Re: Wager Tournaments (Split)

Post by Cody »

sinewav wrote:
Flex wrote:Anyway, I don't think it's gambling or betting.
Flex is totally right. Betting/gambling would be if people wagered on the outcome of match. The entry fees are considered necessary to cover the cost of the tournament (server rental, administration), and the cash prize it just that, a prize. If anything you would simply have to pay a tax on your winnings.
Ya I already looked into all the legal stuff, I think I'll be hosting a Sumo Bar Prize Tournament.

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compguygene
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Re: Wager Tournaments (Split)

Post by compguygene »

sinewav wrote:
Flex wrote:Anyway, I don't think it's gambling or betting.
Flex is totally right. Betting/gambling would be if people wagered on the outcome of match. The entry fees are considered necessary to cover the cost of the tournament (server rental, administration), and the cash prize it just that, a prize. If anything you would simply have to pay a tax on your winnings.
Server rental..hmm. This really brings up an interesting question.

There have been always concerns about there being enough quality servers for competitions. Have any of you considered the opportunity here? We could band together as a community, and choose a server owner that can be trusted, like Kyle, and use part of the proceeds of a monthly tournament like this to pay for a dedicated server in New York and a dedicated server in Germany. Said servers could be dedicated soley to tournaments, and not only cash ones. If we ran 2 cash tournaments a month, I bet we could afford 4 servers. This would all be dependent on one person being chosen as a "trusted" party to run the paypal account and pay for the servers. The community could decide on a set of "server administrators" that agree not to ever participate in a money tournament.
The resulting "tournament" servers could be the "high quality" neutral servers to play in. And tournaments like the Ladle, etc would benefit as well.
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sinewav
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Re: Wager Tournaments (Split)

Post by sinewav »

Dude, we have more servers than we know what to do with already.

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compguygene
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Re: Wager Tournaments (Split)

Post by compguygene »

sinewav wrote:Dude, we have more servers than we know what to do with already.
Sine, I know you think we have too many servers. In many ways, I would certainly agree. However, I am talking about 2 dedicated servers as hosting servers just for tournaments, and nothing else. By having 2 dedicated servers, run by the community, dedicated to tournaments, the community would benefit in a ton of ways.

1. Right now the resource repository server is only hosted on one server, no other active resource repository servers are hosting maps in the round robin at this time. The person/people that manage these servers could also host resource repository servers in the round robin that currently has no backup. Also, the person/people managing the servers could create new resource repository accounts, something which has not happened in a long time.

2. No offence to all of you that have VPS's and host tron servers on them, but for truly international tournaments, VPS's generally get laggy at times for people with larger pings. Some of the servers that are routinely used in Ladles, for instance, are pretty slidy and laggy for a significant number of players. Two additional dedicated servers would make for much better tournament experiences than currently happen. The idea is 2 quality servers dedicated to tournament servers only.

3. I know that most of you think that the idea of DF, HR, Shooting, and other abhorrent game modes really shouldn't even exist. However, they build the player base. Tournaments are starting to happen in these game modes, and are going to happen more. Additional quality servers are going to be more quality servers for these events as well. Many of these players that start out in HR/DF/shooting, etc, are going to get bored with those modes, eventually and just start playing Fortress/Sumo. Plus, if the only "money" tournaments are in Fortress/Sumo, what do you think they are gonna end up playing. In summation More DF/HR/Shooting tourneys ---> more players playing Armagetrona ---> more Fortress/Sumo players.

Ok, maybe not a ton of benefits, but there is three.
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Re: Wager Tournaments (Split)

Post by syllabear »

compguygene wrote:If we ran 2 cash tournaments a month, I bet we could afford 4 servers.
Think about what you just said. Flex (and myself) are wary that this tournament might not get many more than 8 teams who want to play for this seemingly 1-off tournament. You are suggesting 2 paid tournaments a month? Most people who play this game are either kids or people who don't want to pay for it.


Sorry, but anything beyond the very occasional paid tournament is just not going to receive enough interest.
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Re: Flex's Fortress Cup

Post by Phytotron »

sinewav wrote:
Flex wrote:Anyway, I don't think it's gambling or betting.
Flex is totally right. Betting/gambling would be if people wagered on the outcome of match. The entry fees are considered necessary to cover the cost of the tournament (server rental, administration), and the cash prize it just that, a prize. If anything you would simply have to pay a tax on your winnings.
Cody wrote:Just to chime in, online gambling laws are active in these states
Illinois, Indiana, Louisiana, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, South Dakota, and Washington.
I just read here that even cash prize tourneys may be prohibited in Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Delaware, Iowa, Maryland, North Dakota, Tennessee and Vermont.

Still another site listed Arizona, Delaware, Iowa, Louisiana, Arkansas, Tennessee, Vermont, Connecticut, Florida, Montana, South Carolina and Illinois.

Another said it's legal in 37 states, without specifying which prohibit it.
[F]ederal law actually doesn't prohibit you placing the "bet"...Tron Is considered a sporting event....
Actually, there's apparently a distinction between whether you're wagering on a game of chance, or involved in a game of skill (sport falls under skill, but so do video games, which aren't sports).


Point is, if you all ever actually do this, and want go about it legally (which you most certainly do, if only to avoid the hassle of dealing with any repercussions that may arise), you might want to consult an actual legal expert rather than webpages, which, of course, may be misinformed themselves (especially with the murkiness of it, and current legal proceedings involving the online poker sites), or flat-out lying to you. Plenty of fly-by-nights exist solely to misinform young (and adult) gamers who don't know any better (or how to find out) and scam money out of them (or their parents).


And, mind you, most banks prohibit the use of their accounts/cards (debit or credit) for anything they may deem online gambling, irrespective of the law, for fear of being brought up on money laundering charges. So, everyone would want to check their bank's policies as well.

That would include going through PayPal (which, of course, isn't a bank). Specifically, from PayPal's site:
PayPal prohibits the following activities, even where the specific activity is lawful and/or is not legally defined as gambling, unless the transactions are associated with an approved merchant.

Games of chance and games of skill –Includes any activity with an entry fee and a prize, regardless of whether the outcome is determined by chance or skill.
Seems pretty clear to me—you wouldn't be able to use PayPal even if Federal and your particular State laws allow online cash prize tournaments.

(Incidentally, PayPal doesn't have near the security or protections you think it does. Moreover, what it classifies as "intangibles" receive no buyer protection whatsoever.)

Hoax
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Re: Wager Tournaments (Split)

Post by Hoax »

Didn't read this thoroughly but when money is involved unless it goes to somewhere that is trusted and the servers played on are perfect, the possibility for success is slim
You probably know this already though

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Re: Wager Tournaments (Split)

Post by FoFo »

to be honest i prefered the idea of old flex's tournament for me i ve already said it but tron doesnt need money to be attractive , flex s idea was like smaller tails , no hole or smthg like that , would have been great for old school atking , so we can play ladles with hole tactic and stuff and that kind of tourney for real atkers

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