Ladle 38+: Aliases (and a bit Seeding and Team Changes)

[PsYkO]

But with so many factors in fortress, couldn't this also be true?

Lag kills me but my team still wins
Lag kills me and my team loses
Lag wouldn't have killed me, but I would have died later in the round
Round win, round lost
Lag wouldn't hav ekilled me, and I stayed alive for the rest of the round
Round win, round lost

I don't see how we can really prove aliases are an advantage unless we do an experiment. Should we set one up? An alias tournament? (we would need a separate thread)

I wonder if we should turn the discussion to @ladle and try to answer the important questions about it. Who will manage it? How do we prevent more than one name per IP? Can the IP's be checked at the time of Ladle (like a filter that only let's registered IP's in)?

I would also like to discuss abandoning player sign-up altogether as a possibility. I don't see the harm in it.

There is one idea I had this morning, and that was to change the time we fill the brackets. My suggestion is to leave the Challenge Board completely open until one hour before Ladle. At that time we freeze the Board and random/seed the teams. No more changes. No players who aren't already on the board can play. Sure, it doesn't solve the alias problem, but it's a different approach to running this event and would let us eliminate a lot of the current rules that no one really cares about following anyway.

Yeah I pretty much laid those examples out to point out how easy the game can change and how it can't really be quantified...So all the statistics and the idea of having an alias tournament won't solve anything. No one will change their opinion unless they are in a tournament and they realize they die because they misjudged the other player.

In terms of @ladle, this is where I leave lol. I have no idea how that stuff works.

[INW]

I favor the @ladle idea...seems to be the best way to solve this 'sign up' problem(s). Not sure if this has been brought up but I'm sure it has; maybe a vote in the next 'quaterly' vote and make it effective the next ladle? Kyle should have it done by then unless he wanks too much right?

[Goodygumdrops]

Sure, it doesn't solve the alias problem, but it's a different approach to running this event and would let us eliminate a lot of the current rules that no one really cares about following anyway.

which is one of the reasons adding more rules is not likely to solve very much in the long run

as previously mentioned by z-man (i believe) and possibly others, the only way to really prevent unsporting/abusive behaviors such as those seen during the summer 2010 ladles is for the community to:

1) reserve the right to punish offenders even when they don't explicitly break the rules

2) actually USE that right and punish the guilty parties

however, it seems the consensus thus far is to "let it slide" and add more rules to stop specific undesirable activities

this approach will always leave the ladle open to innovative types of cheating

[sinewav]

No one will change their opinion unless they are in a tournament and they realize they die because they misjudged the other player.

WTF. Now you just ruined any argument proving aliases are bad by putting the responsibility on the individual player and their inability to keep their guard up. The same thing can be said for hole sizes - if you misjudge and die, it's not the fault of the hole.

Oh well. There are other things to discuss anyway.

[Tobe]

1) reserve the right to punish offenders even when they don't explicitly break the rules

2) actually USE that right and punish the guilty parties

I agree

[Titanoboa]

There is one idea I had this morning, and that was to change the time we fill the brackets. My suggestion is to leave the Challenge Board completely open until one hour before Ladle. At that time we freeze the Board and random/seed the teams. No more changes. No players who aren't already on the board can play.

Let's add "no more predictions" along that, and probably more things too.
predictions and pre-ladle discussions are fun.


As for the alias thing, I agree with psyko, and I know what he's saying about the alias advantage. I guess you have to experience it yourself to really notice it.
I think it'd be a good attitude to encourage real names in the ladle and keep the "smurfing" in other tourneys.

to me, TST and WST wouldn't be quite as fun without the crazy, themed team/player names.. while ladle (or fortress at all) is more fun with a more serious approach where everyone dish out the best skills and strategy they have. That's my opinion, disagree at will.

[Desolate]

What about last minute subs? Tx1 used one this ladle, free kill, who kindly agreed to play for us until our real players showed up. I've never seen anyone tell the opposing team that they cannot use a sub. Should there be a rule added for this?

[Flex]

I don't see how we can really prove aliases are an advantage unless we do an experiment.

I don't get it. How does team A; having all its members being visible compared to Team B; not having any member visible - NOT prove it?

I can try and prove it to you, if you find my example logical - that's what matters.

1. If you know Woned is in a team, you know he will be playing in the centre position?
2. You also know he will be centreing a lot.

Without that; Your opponents don't know this information, with it, they do.

What is the value of this information? Your opponents have the advantage of surprising centre attacks. Is it proven already for you? If not, continue reading!

You would then prepare you team to counter those centre attacks by being prepared for it and stopping it. Your sweepers would have a correct set up just to stop him directly in his tracks. SP in Ladle 37 failed to do that, not because we were not aware, but because we didn't properly do any of our usual countering and adjustments that we try to do. As sweepers, wings and our centre player - we failed in all areas. I'm not trying to take away their deserved win, they definitely did deserve it as they beat us.

This is a reality, and you might say, well you already knew it was him. Well yes we did, but we didn't do what we wanted to do and that is - block him. The big picture is - imagine we were not even aware of it. We really under estimated him too which was pretty much the same result as assuming he wasn't there. Situation - much much worse.

[sinewav]

1. If you know Woned is in a team, you know he will be playing in the centre position?
2. You also know he will be centreing a lot.
Without that; Your opponents don't know this information, with it, they do

So, just assume the center player is owned even if his alias says Jennifer. Problem solved. Good teams use surprise anyway, regardless of names.

We really under estimated him too which was pretty much the same result as assuming he wasn't there.

See, this just proves that the problem is a shortcoming by the team and has nothing to do with aliases. Now you and PsYkO both said it.

I guess it's just me then. I've never been burned by an alias, ever. I assume the worst and try my hardest every time - and never give my opponent a millimeter of slack regardless of their name. If you get tricked so easily, then I don't know what to say.

But it doesn't matter what I say. I guess we'll have to deal with this since no one has a solution - we're just going in circles debating on the alleged value of aliases*. I give up. I don't care about aliases either way. I think I'll just remove myself from the conversation now.

*Note that aliases did not help DVAS at all Sunday.

[Gonzap]

i'm not gonna read it all... I just say... why not just making everyone log in with the most common name he got, unhidden. This way everyone can use aliases for fun, and also there will be no complaints about the real player behind the fake name..

[Eckz]

SP isn't fighting a defensive battle here either, we can also go under alias. Already team Unknown, ID clan did it last Ladle (37). I hope it was only just because of a response to another team going under alias and not for personal preference. I also hope it doesn't get repeated. Once the gates open, there will be a hard times to turn back, but now the big picture remains; what happens to Fortress and the Ladle as a whole once we accept smurfs/aliases as a norm and everybody starts doing it.

I really dont see how Team Unk using the UNK names gave us any advantage. /players clearly showed who each person was. If its a problem though, I dont care to use my real name. Even though my name was WildcatUnkizzle which really isnt hiding anything

Gonzap, that's been mentioned and some people don't like that still - even though that shouldn't be an issue, but oh well.

I agree with sine.wav. If you aren't prepared for a player's ability, then how can you blame that on the other person? That's your fault for not being observant enough of the players style. We've all played enough with each other to notice who a person is just by the way they're playing. I have anyways, but maybe I focus more on that. What's funny is that Ladle 37 only had 1 team that was aliased, DVAS. I don't understand why the issue hasn't been addressed prior till now if it was such a big deal.. at least to me it doesn't make much sense why one team would make it necessary to cause such a big fuss over something that isn't anything out of the norm.

[PsYkO]

No one will change their opinion unless they are in a tournament and they realize they die because they misjudged the other player.

WTF. Now you just ruined any argument proving aliases are bad by putting the responsibility on the individual player and their inability to keep their guard up. The same thing can be said for hole sizes - if you misjudge and die, it's not the fault of the hole.

Oh well. There are other things to discuss anyway.

I think you misinterpreted what I'm saying. Maybe I should have said "until they misjudged the other player because that player who they weren't supposed to be/concealed. Continue this thought after the next quote...

1. If you know Woned is in a team, you know he will be playing in the centre position?
2. You also know he will be centreing a lot.
Without that; Your opponents don't know this information, with it, they do

So, just assume the center player is owned even if his alias says Jennifer. Problem solved. Good teams use surprise anyway, regardless of names.

We really under estimated him too which was pretty much the same result as assuming he wasn't there.

See, this just proves that the problem is a shortcoming by the team and has nothing to do with aliases. Now you and PsYkO both said it.

I guess it's just me then. I've never been burned by an alias, ever. I assume the worst and try my hardest every time - and never give my opponent a millimeter of slack regardless of their name. If you get tricked so easily, then I don't know what to say.

But it doesn't matter what I say. I guess we'll have to deal with this since no one has a solution - we're just going in circles debating on the alleged value of aliases*. I give up. I don't care about aliases either way. I think I'll just remove myself from the conversation now.

*Note that aliases did not help DVAS at all Sunday.

Quick note, maybe DVAS just sucked. I cannot quantify this problem as a "this team one because they smurfed" because there are so many factors involved in teams winning, and one of them, IMO is smurfing. There is no way you can tell that DVAS won/lost due to smurfing but I feel pretty confident that they killed a couple extra people because they were concealed.

Here's the thing about the woned example. He is an aggressive center, if I played the same way I play against him vs everyone, I would be a horrible center position because I would constantly block, not try and kill, and not try and center. If I know that there is someone else besides woned, I may switch it up a lot more and tell my wings to play accordingly. the strategy of him and vs. him are tied to his name and pretending that its the "toughest center in the game" weakens my aggressiveness. It not only hides people's strengths but also hides their weaknesses.

I dunno, I put a hell of a lot of weight in people's names and I come into the game knowing people's strengths and weakness probably more than anyone else that plays. I dont have that much skill but I play with a lot of strategy and play a lot of head games (which is why I'm really good at sweeping lol).

[PsYkO]

I agree with sine.wav. If you aren't prepared for a player's ability, then how can you blame that on the other person? That's your fault for not being observant enough of the players style. We've all played enough with each other to notice who a person is just by the way they're playing. I have anyways, but maybe I focus more on that. What's funny is that Ladle 37 only had 1 team that was aliased, DVAS. I don't understand why the issue hasn't been addressed prior till now if it was such a big deal.. at least to me it doesn't make much sense why one team would make it necessary to cause such a big fuss over something that isn't anything out of the norm.

I've never liked it ever since TuI used aliases like 20 ladles ago. I told them then and mocked them for it. Then for a while no one used smurf names or at least no one that I played against did. Than binary came along and I blew up (which I apologized for) and it really caught me off guard because I respected a lot of people on that team. We also asked them to reveal themselves and they wouldn't. This is when I came to the forums and actually addressed my concerns (before I would just say this is stupid, you're a joke, etc.) but now I clearly stated why I think it is bad for the ladle with my reasons.

"That's your fault for not being observant enough of the players style"

It still takes several rounds to get used to a player's style when you have no idea who they are. When someone shows up with their actual name, I already know how they play. I think you just quoted yourself to agreement.

[Discosuperstar]

Personally I like to see the names of who I am playing against, especially for something like ladle. And it's not really to adjust my play style; I'd play the same way as I usually do, but having the random names everywhere makes the whole match seem like a joke to me. This ofc is a personal preference; I can't give any logical reasons why aliases are bad if logins are visible.
I'll just say if you consider sports, players aren't allowed to makeup new names & numbers on their jerseys, with a lookup table hanging somewhere in the stadium if peopel want to actually know who is playing.

[Desolate]

I'm pretty sure DVAS played uNk with 4 people. They can't really be added to any credible data on whether aliases provide an advantage or not.