Looking ahead - Ladle 21 - "Rules"

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DDMJ
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Looking ahead - Ladle 21 - "Rules"

Post by DDMJ »

We have a few things to discuss, but they're not really new. There's no point to argue over them since it's clear we all have different feelings. Instead, I think we should just take a vote. Similarly to how we did it before this is how it will work:

Team captains will discuss with their teams all of the rules that are in question. The Sunday before the Ladle will be the last day that the rules can be voted on, so team captains must get their votes in by then, or else they don't count. Note: if there is a tie in the voting for any rule, the current setting will be used (i.e. if there's a tie between 6v6 and 8v8, then it will default to 6v6).

Here's the settings that are still debatable:
  • team_max_players - 6v6? 7v7? 8v8?
  • score_hole - yes (+1 point), no (0 points)
  • 2v2 - unconquerable? conquerable?
  • scoring distribution - score_win 6, fortress_conquered_score 4? or score_win 10, fortress_conquered_score 0?
  • brackets - random teams, seeded teams (top 2? top4?)
  • servers - random? balance of Euro/American? (like Ladle 20)
  • finals - always Z-Man's? rotate between Z-Man's and American Server? (TR Fort? Server Pharm? PinkTomato's?)
  • server names - normal? (all different) coordinated? (like Ladle 20)
  • team signups - list players? (do they have to play with the name listed? is there a size limit? can teams recruit on the day of?) don't list players?
That's all of the ones I could think of for now. If there's more, I'll edit this post.
Last edited by DDMJ on Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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DDMJ
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Re: Looking ahead - Ladle 21 - "Rules"

Post by DDMJ »

Ok, I'll start it off. This isn't TR's vote, but I'll just get the wheels in your brains to start spinning:
  • team_max_players - 6v6? 7v7? 8v8?
I feel like 6v6 wasn't as laggy as 8v8, but it did have it's ups and downs. It seemed like in 6v6, once 2 players died on a team, 6v4 was a pretty tough disadvantage. 8v8 was too laggy, 6v6 might have seemed a little better, but I'd be down to try 7v7 for the next Ladle.
  • score_hole - yes (+1 point), no (0 points)
There should be no points awarded for going through the hole. When holes are used effectively, your award is easily getting into the other team's base. There should be no reason you get additional points.
  • 2v2 - unconquerable? conquerable?
We all know that offense is harder than defense. If you can get 2 offensive players into the zone against 2 defenders, they should be able to conquer the zone. If 2v2 is changed to conquerable, it still takes 10 seconds, so it's not like the defense doesn't have a chance at killing them before the zone gets captured.
  • scoring distribution - score_win 6, fortress_conquered_score 4? or score_win 10, fortress_conquered_score 0?
Again, offense is harder, so they should be rewarded more than defense (although with the new barrage of intentional holes, this could become an interesting discussion). However, if the defender wins, he will have gotten his "bonus" by killing the attackers (+2 if 1 attacker, +4 if 2 attackers, etc.). Also, if a team conquers the other team's zone just after theirs has been conquered, I believe they should get those 4 points, since they did conquer the zone, didn't they?
  • brackets - random teams, seeded teams (top 2? top4?)
I would like to see the teams seeded. CT played very close matches against |x| and TR and those were the 1st 2 rounds of the Ladle. CT edged out |x| 100-98 in the 2nd match to move on. It would be nice if these exciting matchups occurred later in the tournament, because clearly |x| was a good enough team to move on past the 1st round. However, trying to seed 4 teams is hard. For example, the winners of Ladle 19 (KoD), didn't even play in Ladle 20 and the top 4 teams of Ladle 20 were CT, +Plus, WW, and pluS+. Notice something? Plus had enough players to split into 2 teams. What if they don't have enough for the next Ladle? I think seeding just the top 2 teams will be easier and more realistic.
  • servers - random? balance of Euro/American? (like Ladle 20)
A balance only seems fair, although the 1st round had a few strange things. First of all, PinkTomatos wasn't there and his server was running the wrong settings, so it would've been nice to have another American backup server. Also, ID played against WWa in CT Fort, a European server. Both ID and WWa are "American" teams, so maybe next time, we'll randomize the teams, then try and arrange the servers, but only for the opening round since the rest of the rounds were fair. But, that would require having more than 8 servers; something that isn't that hard to do.
  • finals - always Z-Man's? rotate between Z-Man's and American Server? (TR Fort? Server Pharm? PinkTomato's?)
We've always used Z-Man's server for the finals and it's been pretty good. However, maybe we could rotate it each Ladle (so have the finals in an American server for Ladle 21 (maybe TR server)). But, of course, the "home" server rule will still apply (if both teams in the finals are European, the finals would then be in Z-Man's server.
  • server names - normal? (all different) coordinated? (like Ladle 20)
The color coordination was neat and easy. I just sorted by Server Name and scrolled down on the server browser to see what was going on. On a side note, that Ladle subculture that nemo had was neat, but not too many people knew about it.
  • team signups - list players? (do they have to play with the name listed?) don't list players?
Yes, please signup under the name you're going to play with. If you really want to use an alias, put that alias on the Challenge Board when you signup. It's too easy to cheat if 1) the players aren't listed and 2) if it appears that "different" players are playing than the ones that signed up for that specific team.

Anyways, those are some thoughts to chew on. Let me know what you guys think.

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Re: Looking ahead - Ladle 21 - "Rules"

Post by radian »

cant fault your reasoning on all those points...superb
we on plus did use aliases ..but all our aliases were posted on our site well before the ladle..if it needs to be checked...however i can see it would be more favorable to stick
with the name posted on the challenge board
i will do my best to get plus to ..adopt this aproach

7v7 may work better
i just love it

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Re: Looking ahead - Ladle 21 - "Rules"

Post by Flex »

servers : The servers should be decided based by the majority. If half of the tournament includes Americans then half of the servers should be based in America.

final server : Always Z-Man's. If BOTH teams in the finals are "American", change it to an American server, (If both teams agree.)

server names : Coordinated, of course. Talk about the formatting in another thread!
Last edited by Flex on Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Looking ahead - Ladle 21 - "Rules"

Post by 2020 »

nit-picking
cabin fever

the game is excellent
let's not bugger about with it

let's settle it simply
and apply our little wheels spinning in our minds to
increasing the number of players for ladle 21
that's where we should be applying most of our attention to...
or at least
that's where i am...

given that
happy to put my 2 bits worth
though i'd like to suggest that lacka does his translation of deliberatorium onto the wiki
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8XgPDs_pHc
is the simple vid to watch wrt com problems with forums
:)
hold the line

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Re: Looking ahead - Ladle 21 - "Rules"

Post by hoop »

DDMJ wrote:That's all of the ones I could think of for now. If there's more, I'll edit this post.
http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 8&start=15

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2020
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Re: Looking ahead - Ladle 21 - "Rules"

Post by 2020 »

DDMJ wrote: Here's the settings that are still debatable:
  • team_max_players - 6v6? 7v7? 8v8?
  • score_hole - yes (+1 point), no (0 points)
  • 2v2 - unconquerable? conquerable?
  • scoring distribution - score_win 6, fortress_conquered_score 4? or score_win 10, fortress_conquered_score 0?
  • brackets - random teams, seeded teams (top 2? top4?)
  • servers - random? balance of Euro/American? (like Ladle 20)
  • finals - always Z-Man's? rotate between Z-Man's and American Server? (TR Fort? Server Pharm? PinkTomato's?)
  • server names - normal? (all different) coordinated? (like Ladle 20)
  • team signups - list players? (do they have to play with the name listed?) don't list players?
team players
8v8
for just the right level of complexity
our ping will be improving with time so future-proof the decision please

score_hole
get rid of this

2v2
unconquerable
thinking about a final and how it should be decided
skill and not something to do with spectators bored with watching during normal non-comp days

scoring distribution
10 for simplicity
every noob can understand that

brackets
random for now
but consider jockeying especially when we have hundreds of teams since captains can self sort wrt low-ping servers (ie geography)

servers
tricky one this wrt future-proofing
first winning team gets to decide on which they can play on that is available to their bracket
ie the server they just played on or the server their opponents played on or any server they have played on up to that bracket...

finals
same as above
and i suspect the same servers will be picked because of reputation of the server and admin and stability and recording facilities etc

server names
excellent idea wrt this ladle 20
(wonder if there is any way of altering the point score of the server so they pop up at the top during ladle night?)
(also consider procedure for locking servers and other server admin duties : )

team signups
authentication will be enforced at some point
i think these should just be guidelines for now and not something we need to fight about

please remember
we will never have a system that can not be gamed
and hence
let us not fight over trying to produce THE objective system
but instead
ensure that we build the trust relationships between players and between captains
ie
respect and honour
as the general in gladiator reminds us
these are not just words
hold the line

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Re: Looking ahead - Ladle 21 - "Rules"

Post by DDMJ »

hoop wrote:
DDMJ wrote:That's all of the ones I could think of for now. If there's more, I'll edit this post.
http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 8&start=15
That's already there:
DDMJ wrote:
  • team signups - list players? (do they have to play with the name listed?) don't list players?

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sol
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Re: Looking ahead - Ladle 21 - "Rules"

Post by sol »

/me wishes a standard finally

so we don't discuss that stuff all the time.

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Re: Looking ahead - Ladle 21 - "Rules"

Post by hoop »

DDMJ wrote:That's already there:
DDMJ wrote:
  • team signups - list players? (do they have to play with the name listed?) don't list players?
I saw, but I suggest another rule in that thread:
hoop wrote:- teams' names and tags must be different from each other enough to avoid any kind of misunderstanding -

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Re: Looking ahead - Ladle 21 - "Rules"

Post by sinewav »

Looks good Durka. I copied this list to the Plus site so we can discuss internally. I think all the important stuff has been covered.

I believe team captain voting will take place on the Ladle 21 thread when created, correct?

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Re: Looking ahead - Ladle 21 - "Rules"

Post by SageLord »

Flex wrote:final server : Always Z-Man's. If BOTH teams in the finals are "American", change it to an American server, (If both teams agree.)
Why always Z-Man's? That doesn't sound fair to me. The finals server should be random if there euro vs american.

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Re: Looking ahead - Ladle 21 - "Rules"

Post by -=VcL.Rajinn »

SageLord wrote:
Flex wrote:final server : Always Z-Man's. If BOTH teams in the finals are "American", change it to an American server, (If both teams agree.)
Why always Z-Man's? That doesn't sound fair to me. The finals server should be random if there euro vs american.
Hows the random server going to be "random"? Someone biased is going to choose :roll:
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Re: Looking ahead - Ladle 21 - "Rules"

Post by DDMJ »

-=VcL.Rajinn wrote:
SageLord wrote:
Flex wrote:final server : Always Z-Man's. If BOTH teams in the finals are "American", change it to an American server, (If both teams agree.)
Why always Z-Man's? That doesn't sound fair to me. The finals server should be random if there euro vs american.
Hows the random server going to be "random"? Someone biased is going to choose :roll:
The same way we did the randomization of the teams - a script.

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Re: Looking ahead - Ladle 21 - "Rules"

Post by 1200 »

@Durka

Is there a vote like this for every Ladle or will the Ladle settings be converted to these settings for now after these votes? Yea i can probably think of some other things to consider as well.

1) How about the number of players a team can list. Will there be a max limit or not?
2) Recruiting - are teams allowed to recruit still on the day of the tourny if they are short?
Sago! wrote:Why always Z-Man's? That doesn't sound fair to me. The finals server should be random if there euro vs american.
I agree the finals server should be random if we want to keep the competition totally fair otherwise its not.
If its a tradition to play the finals in Zman's then why not just use one of the US Servers and call it Zman's (US) server???

Also the number of US & Euro servers should be equal as well which wasn't the case in the first round for Ladle 20.

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