Administrators for cafe

For things that have to do with those crazy test servers... and yeah. By request of z-man, and, of course, you gotta obey...

Moderator: Z-Man

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Z-Man
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Post by Z-Man »

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[2] Ady-Lucifer: Theres a server for them to learn
[2] Ady-Lucifer: Niolon: try Crazy tronners wild fortress to learn.[/quote]/me agrees with epsy here. That's about as helpful as the various shift-esc pranks. While the help messages on CTWF are good, the players usually don't bother to teach and go straight for the kick.

And about the majority vote: Ady himself said the player was making progress. In that case, kicking or suspending him is wrong, and if that would have been the outcome of the vote, then the majority of the players would have been wrong.

About public teaching chat: Well, if it wouldn't be public and everyone would try to help the newbie with /msg messages, he'd get spammed. Also not ideal.

wrtl: you don't have to accept discussions :) The way I see things, you own the server. You do what you want and you make the rules. You delegate some of that doing what you want to the moderators. As long as they follow your orders within the liberties you give them, everything should be fine, and the appropriate answer to complaining players is "STFU, play somewhere else if you don't like my rules". Well, maybe a more diplomatic variant.

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wrtlprnft
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Post by wrtlprnft »

I'm mostly talking about people abusing the /teach command not to teach someone, but rather to disturb them. I changed it so /teach respects the spam protection and serverside silencing and so that there's a public announcement to everyone that <someone> has informed <someone else> about <some topic>, and now it's enough to be authenticated to send those help messages.

It would be great if the help message was sent to the receiver as a chat message so the silence menu would work for it, but I fear I'd get the backwards compatibility wrong, it's too much of a mess for me.
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AdyLucifer
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Post by AdyLucifer »

Lucifer wrote:All the popular opinion shows is what many people think. All I need do to prove my point is say one word: Bush.
There are no many differences between Bush and epsy,the only one important I see is that Bush has been chosen by the majority of the american nation,and epsy has been chosen by one person.How d we know if his decission was right or not,if we don't even know that he should be in the position where he is?
Democracy is the politics-model nowadays,and it means that the people choses the 'president',and he/she tries his/her best for the people.
Comparing a country with armagetron is ridiculous,but still so, epsy hasn't been voted by anyone.
wrtlprnft wrote:epsy had only one way to protect the newbie from your chat
You talk about my words as they were bullets on their way to niolon's head.
They are not.Myself when i was new to this game I found out that CTWF is the best server for me to play in,and i did so.After beeing on the top of the scorelist,I decided to return back to that server full of great players,and I didnt get kicked then.
It was with my best intention,it was not a verbal agression in any way.
By telling this I'm not saying CTWF is on a lower ''level'' than any other server, I still play there and it's a lot of fun.
Apart of this,assuming that my words hurted the guy,he didn't say anything,if he would have asked me to keep silence I would have done so,but he didn't , so I cant accept you saying it was an agression.

wrtlprnft wrote:He didn't attach anything to the forums.
I uploaded the screenshots to my personal webserver,in the numerical order they were took,screenshot_38,screenshot_39 and screenshot_40. I took those screenshots when epsy unsilenced me, by paging up,so I can't assure that the order is the correct,anyways,this shouldn't be of any importance as it's also written on the logs.

@Z-Man: I realized something tonight,I just wanted to ask,apart of deleting half of my post,did you want to say anything?As I dont see any 'real' post anywhere...

There shouldn't be moredators,it worked fine for 3 years without them, and if you decide to keep the moderators,please let the players vote on who should it be.(Some players pointed out that a moderator shouldn't be in any clan,as it unbalances the point of view,specially when that certain clan's members aren't very polite/respectful.I got no oppinion on this.)


Re.edit

-------------
And about the majority vote: Ady himself said the player was making progress. In that case, kicking or suspending him is wrong, and if that would have been the outcome of the vote, then the majority of the players would have been wrong.
By progress i meant that he managed to turn into the direction of the players after 3 seconds of the start of the round,and 1 sec later he splitted,in middle,of the middle of the arena of his team.Lets call it 'progress'.
The way I see things, you own the server. You do what you want and you make the rules.
I thought he did it for us, not for his personal benefit...
If what you say,Zman, will be applied,I get no doubt that someone won't hesitate on getting a server,hosting low-ping/fps-high armagetron servers,as it happened 2 years ago,when CVS server had 0 online players.
Although that someone could not be very interested in doing so,but noone knows.

@wrtlprnft: Thanks for fixing the spam issue.
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wrtlprnft
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Post by wrtlprnft »

/me wasn't aware that café has been up for three years, it looks more like 1.25 years to me.

anyways, maybe something went wrong, but I think there's no point in arguing about it all the time. Just play the game and don't worry that much about the other crap. Maybe epsy could use his powers a little more sparingly, though.

Oh, just to clarify one thing: One reason for me to choose epsy as a moderator is that he's on IRC and café regularily, so I have a quick way of contacting him. Also he's got quite a bit of technical knowledge, so at least he knows what he's doing when issuing admin commands.
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AdyLucifer
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Post by AdyLucifer »

wrtlprnft wrote:/me wasn't aware that café has been up for three years, it looks more like 1.25 years to me.
When i said 3 years I wasnt referring to Café.It was Arma in general.
On the re-edit I said 2 years ago,and I think thats the time when CVS was still online.

Anyone can have technical knowledge , and I,per example, am online 12 hours /day(also been admin in LoD servers,badly but I did it..,without knowing any special information about programming,etc). According to that anyone could be a moderator. What about picking the one with the best 'head' on judging people's actions? :).
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Post by wrtlprnft »

You didn't read the part that he has been on IRC for quite some time now. And obviously it has to be someone I trust, at least to some extend.
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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

AdyLucifer wrote:
Lucifer wrote:All the popular opinion shows is what many people think. All I need do to prove my point is say one word: Bush.
There are no many differences between Bush and epsy,the only one important I see is that Bush has been chosen by the majority of the american nation,and epsy has been chosen by one person.How d we know if his decission was right or not,if we don't even know that he should be in the position where he is?
Democracy is the politics-model nowadays,and it means that the people choses the 'president',and he/she tries his/her best for the people.
Comparing a country with armagetron is ridiculous,but still so, epsy hasn't been voted by anyone.
Yeah, you missed hte point. You said that the poll was about to pass, that's a majority of players deciding to kick the guy. I say that Bush is an ass, that's a majority of people deciding to re-elect him (he wasn't originally elected with majority support). I'm not comparing Bush to epsy, I'm using Bush to show that the majority view is not always right. Your argument depends on the majority view being right, and I've just shown how the majority view is not guaranteed to be right. So you need to show how it *is* right for this situation, or else your entire argument collapses.
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Z-Man
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Post by Z-Man »

AdyLucifer wrote:@Z-Man: I realized something tonight,I just wanted to ask,apart of deleting half of my post,did you want to say anything?As I dont see any 'real' post anywhere...
Oh, I wanted to give you a chance to restore your post first, because the bits I accidentally deleted were of course the bits I did not want to respond to; and epsy and Non-Ady-Lucifer basically said what I wanted to say.

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Post by sinewav »

I just want to add my version because I (cmd.exe) was in Cafe during all of this.

Niolon was an especially difficult case in my opinion. He seemed quite unresponsive to advice, possibly because he wasn't looking up? When you are new, playing and responding to (or even noticing) chat can be difficult. He did make some progress, but as Ady-Lucifer said it was minimal.

However, Niolon was on epsy's team (gold) and I find it quite commendable that epsy had the patience to teach Niolon. The blue team (Addy) was in no danger of losing the match. The teams were small and nothing was at stake.

It think epsy was trying to keep Niolon from being discouraged, and he acted with good intentions using his best judgment. I didn't see any reason for kicking Niolon. Part of team play is dealing with the strengths and weaknesses of your team. It's all part of the game.

Now, with that said you might think "well, you voted to kick...why?" I always vote to kick. It's my personal policy.

Remember, we all have a choice. If you don't want to play with someone, go to another server or come back later.

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Post by AdyLucifer »

Lucifer: Yes i get it,but that can't be true in all the situations.

Let's return to the main topic, i wasnt silenced because of the poll,but because of the words I said.Definetly i'm not going to poll any newbie again,but I will still talk, and that's why I wouldn't like to get abused by any moderator.I assume the consequences when it's my fault.But I can't let them do what they want when it's not something worth for a punishment.
Maybe Lucifer is right and the poll wasn't the right thing to do,and I got nothing against the guy,I just want the moderators to use their powers 'moderately'.

I hope not to have to reopen this topic again .
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Post by epsy »

as many others said,
that wasn't a punishment at all

Electric Turtle is right, i didn't want him to be discouraged, that's why i silenced you, get it?

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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

Actually, it's a logical fallacy, one of the informal fallacies. Which means that any argument which uses it as a premise (the appeal to popular opinion) is fallacious. That doesn't mean that popular opinion is never a useful input to a decision, but a decision and a conclusion are different things. It also doesn't mean your conclusion is *wrong*, it only means the argument based on the poll does not support the conclusion adequately.

So you could be still be right. :) I don't know mostly because I wasn't there. The problem with screenshots of this sort is that they don't capture the activity, and it's not your fault, that's the way it is. The logs would help because there's a timestamp with each entry, but that would still leave out action on the grid itself.

Anyway, what I think it comes down to is this: I've known epsy for a long time, and if you dig around you'll find threads where epsy thought some badmin had done something to him. I think that in all likelihood, epsy is a net positive moderator, so any penalty that strips him of moderation on the server would be bad. It's for the server owner to determine epsy's net effect on the server, of course.

So if epsy is wrong and you are right, what kind of action do you want taken? Is it enough to prove you're right? (consider that proving yourself right for the purpose of being right is petty...) Do you want an apology or something?

So if epsy is right and you are wrong, what kind of action are *you* willing to take to rectify the situation? Would you offer the reciprocal apology? Would you stop asking people to leave the server? Would it have been better to just grit your teeth when it happened, get on with the game, and forget about this incident?

By my count, there are at least two fortress servers that are marked as welcoming new players. So by your transcript, you say "There's a server to learn how to play" and direct him to CTWF. However, by my count, he could have gone to Fortress Cafe to play, because that server is also marked as "friendly to new players". If he was already there, then he was already where he should be, eh? Which makes both the poll (which you're willing to concede was wrong) as well as the request to leave the server both wrong. And epsy right. :)
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Post by AdyLucifer »

Epsy
----------
If anytime someone is going to get discouraged you'll silence me I'll be muted forever,consider that a no-puishment.
So far I've seen you silencing just me,maybe I am an horrible person.

Lucifer
----------
Your way of explaining the things really impresses me, its too bad that i had a 6 mark at philosophy,but I still understand what you mean.:).

In the case that Epsy was wrong and I was right ,I'd just ask him not to do that again.

In the case Epsy was right and I was wrong,I'd definetly apologize, but my way of thinking is way too far of seeing it like that.

You say it would have been better to forget about this,maybe,but now I cant waste any time regretting what I decided to do, and as I walked a good part of the road,I wont stop now that I'm at the near end.

Cafe isn't a welcome-to-new-players server in my oppinion.
Its enough to login to CTWF and see that 7/14 players are playing for less than 6 months.
On café,a new player drops in from time to time,but I never seen 50% of 'new' players on café's arena.
In theory it can be a friendly to new players server, but in the practice it's not.
If what i'm saying about café is true,what you say about Epsy beeing right is ,again,false.
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Post by sinewav »

I think this thread is getting out of hand. This incident wasn't (and shouldn't be) a big deal at all. I've been in way more hostile matches where no one even got polled.

Ady, I know you got your feelings hurt when you got silenced, but take it in stride! Maybe epsy reacted too soon. Maybe you lost your temper too easily. Personally, I think the whole thing is so trite, isn't even worth apologizing for. Let's all move on, shall we?

Finally, this thread shouldn't be about Ady getting dissed or epsy's ability to admin. It should be about the noob that started the whole thing. Put yourself in his cycle. Think about downloading Arma and entering a server for the first time. If your initial experience was a hostile exchange between players, would you go back? As frustrating as it is to play with noobs, we need to remeber it's not the servers that make the game great, it's the players. Let's all try to be good players.

Forget about who is right or wrong. Be right with yourself.

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Post by Flex »


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