Fortress Test Server

For things that have to do with those crazy test servers... and yeah. By request of z-man, and, of course, you gotta obey...

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~*PsYkO*~

Post by ~*PsYkO*~ »

wrtlprnft wrote:“Finite rubber”, as you call it, is already possible. Just set CYCLE_RUBBER_TIME to something huge (3600 seconds means you'd have to play for an hour to regain your rubber), and CYCLE_RUBBER to whatever you want to give to players.
Hehe, I know it's possible, I did it on SpeederS server when me and Manta were first setting it up. I was just throwing it out there if rain wants to go way out there and try it out for his server

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wrtlprnft
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Post by wrtlprnft »

I knew you possibly knew. I was just replying to rain because he asked for a developer, and told him what was doable how and how easily.
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Lackadaisical
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Post by Lackadaisical »

Lucifer wrote:That's exactly what we don't need. People who don't earn a lot of individual points but are a big part of their team wins are already undercredited and generally treated poorly. Maybe you don't earn any points by playing cat and mouse with someone for the whole round, but you blocked him from attacking your zone.
Every time you kill someone you're also blocking them to attack for the rest of the round. I don't think it's unfair if I credit someone who stopped multiple enemies more than someone who've just been busy with one person.

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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

Lackadaisical wrote:
Lucifer wrote:That's exactly what we don't need. People who don't earn a lot of individual points but are a big part of their team wins are already undercredited and generally treated poorly. Maybe you don't earn any points by playing cat and mouse with someone for the whole round, but you blocked him from attacking your zone.
Every time you kill someone you're also blocking them to attack for the rest of the round. I don't think it's unfair if I credit someone who stopped multiple enemies more than someone who've just been busy with one person.
Going for the kill is much riskier (depending on who's coming, of course). While you and I would probably agree "if you can't handle a little risk, you're in the wrong game", still, dying means your team doesn't have you any longer for the rest of the round. Two defenders who cover their zones and play zone defense (as opposed to man-to-man) are almost always more effective at protecting their fortress than two or three defenders who play man-to-man, but the man-to-man players will always have a higher score.

I'm just saying that credit needs to be given where it is due, but that's not happening all the time, or even most of the time, and I think the idea of giving individual rewards for taking the team's goal is going to make it worse. Consider soccer, the goalie versus the front line (I forget the names, but it's the 3 guys in the front, middle does the kickoff). The front line isn't supposed to venture back to the goalie, so might be inclined to take complete credit for the win without even noticing that their goal was attacked more times in the game than they themselves attacked their opponent's goal.
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Rain
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Post by Rain »

wrtlprnft wrote:
PsYkO wrote:
wrtlprnft wrote:“Finite rubber”, as you call it, is already possible. Just set CYCLE_RUBBER_TIME to something huge (3600 seconds means you'd have to play for an hour to regain your rubber), and CYCLE_RUBBER to whatever you want to give to players.

Hehe, I know it's possible, I did it on SpeederS server when me and Manta were first setting it up. I was just throwing it out there if rain wants to go way out there and try it out for his server
I knew you possibly knew. I was just replying to rain because he asked for a developer, and told him what was doable how and how easily.
I already knew about CYCLE_RUBBER_TIME but i understood psyko was talking about something else. i understood about to have a limited rubber relative to the wall grinded. i mean, if we think the rubber as a natural brake that act when a cycle "dig" in to a wall, then you will need several diggings on that wall to seal that way, and even if you do that a player could just spen more time and pass it, and another again and again and again, apparently with no limit. so, i guess, talking about game physics, there is a distance where the rubber act (for example 1 unit from cycle to wall") and there you cannot really get very close to the wall; it seems, dig by dig, you advance always less to the wall. like in that unit, where the rubber acts, with the first dig you go to 0.5, with the second to 0.25, with the third to 0.125, and so on. this is surely related to other thousand things, like speed, accel, dunno. but, finally, what i understood psyko asked was a limited rubber in the wall you digged, rubber time is the same for the whole game, but when you dig a wall, and you digged it 3 for ex, with total rubber 5, then you have only 2 rubber to use in that wall. another example: you dig 4 in a rim, another player dig 4.2, that player pass your dig and you can close it only leaving the rim and let the rubber refill, then re-try...
and i really don't know how to do that. for this reason i asked developers help. i think it could be done setting the rubber to refill only when you leave the wall you digged, when you leave the grind pratically...

sorry for very bad english, i just woke up...

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madmax
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Post by madmax »

PsYkO wrote:What about having a finite rubber system, say set at 30? where you can grind at one time up to 30 (if u start at 0) but the rubber quantity never decreases, only increases.
Did you mean "never decreases, only increases" here? Or the opposite?
Well, I think it'd be fun to try if it was the opposite. That would take us to a "rubber management" issue, spending it in the right places...

Another thing that I think would be nice to try, is the setting on Shrunkland that doesn't allow you to correct grinds. Like when you grind to 2.5 on a wall, then do a right-forward, and increase the tightness to 4.5 for instance.
Don't know which setting that is though.

~*PsYkO*~

Post by ~*PsYkO*~ »

naw rain, take a shower, get a drink of coffee then try again ;)

its exactly what max is saying, rubber management.

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Rain
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Post by Rain »

dunno if you noticed, but the meaning was "i misunderstood psyko" but "my mistaken could be an interesting setting to try.

anyway, after the IFC i decided to setup a team play server that could not be fortress. maybe recalling the movie Tron. with two teams and low rubber, very low. since influences to fortress as café seem to come from every kind of server i think it would be more interesting to try another team play game.

indeed im liking to play in some classic server in these days, mostly because of fortress players behaviour. so, starting a new style could be helpful to newbies introduction and to build a new sub-community with respect and honour.
testing will go on, hoping to be useful for fortress and for the new game itself.

~*PsYkO*~

Post by ~*PsYkO*~ »

Hey rain I got an idea.

By far my favorite setting on wild fortress is how you can speed up on the outer walls. Especially when the speed is equal to that you get when you grind on a light cycle wall. How about making the outer walls do this so it can bring a huge strategy to try out.

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Post by Rain »

i have been away from this project for some weeks, but i would like to go on now.
there are some possibilities i thought about that i am going to explain.
first, i think we should restart from scratch.
probably we have to choose an objective and there are some i have in mind that bring in different ways. the first choice is between a fortress game or a new team play game.
obviously both could reach the same result of game style even if they started from different plans, that is because could happen we start with the intention of create a new kind of team game but working on it, inspired by fortress, it is possible we finally build a just fortress-like kind, the same way could happen that we start with the idea of implement fortress and hack by hack we finally get a really different kind.
so, why am i messing about where to start from or where to arrive?
because the idea is the heart of the project. and if we want a stable project, going on smoothly, we must define the idea where to start and the steps to do.
meantime is not fundamental to know yet what will come out. indeed, i think we should let it have its natural evolution, in this way we will get a good server in both sides, the one that gratify owners and the one that satisfy players.
however everything said above requires time and interest. and unfortunately for personal reasons, even if i am full of interest, my time is going to be less and less. this actually means that if i will have to hold “Test Server” project alone you could not expect a fast and flowing proceeding of it. otherwise, would be interesting to form a little team to divide business and simplify the whole work. also this team could grow in parallelism to the server and maybe in future hosts by itself a machine where to run multiple games.
back to reality. right now i need to know if i am alone or not. and possibly if there is money to talk about yet. then the work could start.
i have some considerations to share about Fortress Test Server. the main changes were the scoring system and few physical modifies. i personally elaborated the scoring system, it was created to limit personal scores and incentive the team to work together to conquer the enemy zone. any kind of death (except for team-killings victims) were counted as a loss of 1 point. and killings were considered a gain of 1 point. in fact i wanted to create a balance between core dumping stuff and staying alive stuff. i think both together make a good player for a team game like fortress. it worked not bad, complains apart, and i saw in FTS an improvement of team work as i have never seen elsewhere. to conceive players to conquer the enemy fortress helped team stuff too. winning the round a team gained 5 points and other 5 for zone conquering.
i have to say most people disliked this scoring system. i have seen several times players coming in and suddenly starting to encourage others to go elsewhere, and most of times the server was empty in few seconds, sadly. the problems that generated this behaviour (and still do) are two, in my humble opinion. the first is that players tend naturally to project their badness to something that cannot answer back (the server), and this is mainly caused by “occidental culture” peculiar of most of us, that teaches us you have to be angry if you lose or if you do it bad. the second is that people do not like to change (that was already said around in forums by someone else i cannot remember right now), so an adaptation needed became heavy and tiring (sense less at one point), and since players have nothing to do but just quit and join another server to avoid that effort, they do it.
i will never say it enough times that is it exactly the opposite expected for an open-source game evolution. because the evolution is not just in code development, but also in solutions found with the code you have. the game, indeed, is what you play in servers. the game for a player is the mode it plays, and the server owner is the creator of it. finally both works are development.
so, please, help both, play everywhere and enjoy every kind of server.
back to topic.
physical modifies were an increased cycle acceleration and a diminished cycle speed, little holes on explosions and probably i forgot some minor things, but whatever... (maybe maz had an idea about wall acceleration, but i cannot remember it at the moment)
newbie had the brilliant idea of cycle_accel and cycle_speed, it made the game more dynamic. someone said the grid was too small for that acceleration, but i think a “smaller” grid incentive players to fight.
anyway physics were interesting, but thought with the intention of evolve fortress style. change perspective, give new solution, solve some problems and, why not, give some others to work on.
i think it would be fine to keep in mind experiences we had in there, they will be surely helpful for future work.
at last, i would like to know who is up to enter the team and some ides from you about how to start and how to proceed.
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Post by MaZuffeR »

Rain wrote:maybe maz had an idea about wall acceleration, but i cannot remember it at the moment
The idea was that lowering CYCLE_ACCEL_SELF would make defence a bit more vulnerable to high speed attacks and to some extent force people to work together a bit more.
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Post by philippeqc »

Rain wrote:... the evolution is not just in code development, but also in solutions found with the code you have. the game, indeed, is what you play in servers. the game for a player is the mode it plays, and the server owner is the creator of it. finally both works are development.
Well said!

In the end, developers are there only in a support function, and to attempt to add new functionality that will be enabled to its full potential by creative administrator!

You seems vibrant and fired-up of creativity! I'm sure you will find a new and interesting way to use the engine, and give us a new game!

Power to the people.

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Rain
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hello world

Post by Rain »

I am back.
In these months out of aa, I found a job and had some relaxing time.
Actually I see Fortress Café succeeded in its role of new fortress home as we imagined it. I am pleased for that.
However creativity still runs on and I cannot hide my desire to re-build up the FTS. So I would like to know if anybody is still interested in Fortress Test Server project. Ideas go far from Z-man's fortress standards, but it could be fun to try out things and maybe outline a new game style.
Obviously needs a server and some help.
Let me know.

kisses,

rain
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wrtlprnft
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Post by wrtlprnft »

The fortress test server has sort of been converted to the ¦x¦ server (sort of because noone in charge of ¦x¦ appers to be able to get a working ssh connection to my server (mostly because i only accept public key authentification), which means that they can't edit the configs, so they just change settings using ingame admin and have to reset them every time it gets restarted for some reason).
I can set up a new fortress test server for you if you like, though. Your SSH access should still work.
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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

I'm willing to volunteer my newly-upgraded server, but I don't know if I have the bandwidth (and until I get 3d acceleration working on my laptop, I can't personally test). I definitely don't have time to set it up beyond getting armastart plugged in there, someone would have to come and hack armastart to do the automated logging/recording/bug cries.
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