What do you expect from your moderators?

[Z-Man]

Mecca and Phytotron are about to come back, so it's probably a good time to explain my new personal policy towards personal conflit. It's simple.

Zero tolerance for escalation.

Let me demonstrate what I mean by 'escalation' by the moderation mistake that happened not too long ago.

Unrelated person: Happy thanksgiving!
X: Let me remind you on this occasion that the thanks we gave back then turned into genocide. (political statement)
Y: Get the **** out. And anyone who agrees with you, too. Especially Z. (escalation)

That's when we should have interfered. Remove and lock OR an immediate one week suspension, leaning towards suspension. Now, the problem to you is that it's hard to tell when you're escalating yourself. For example, to Y, this exchange must have looked like this:

Unrelated person: Happy thanksgiving!
X: **** America.
Y: You're just wrong, how can you say something like that?

It was just an appropriate response. But there's still a way to tell: If you're reading the worst into someone's post and respond in kind, you're escalating. It's as simple as that. Escalation happens when two parties think they're just responding in kind.
And yeah, the question who started a fight is totally irrelevant. It's not like you need to 'defend' yourself against 'attacks'.

Oh, and while I have your attention: the name Louven and it's modifications (Laufen, Loufen, L0uven, etc) shall not be used anymore, violations will be considered escalation. It's not just the modifications, it's the original itself. Phytotron himself was not very clear in communicating how much he dislikes the use of the in-between-current-and-Oscilloscope name, but I'm telling you now. And yeah, anyone else who can convince us there are good reasons to ban old names would get the same service, even though I personally think forum name changes are lame, you should pick one and stick with it. *coughrandomchangestocapitalizationnotincludedcough*

(Regarding other things we don't want here, like uptight-parents-incompatible-content, I'm still on the 'remove and be done with it' track. Seems to work fine.)

[INW]

Unrelated person: Happy thanksgiving!
X: **** America.
Y: You're just wrong, how can you say something like that?

It was just an appropriate response.

I can see how this way to responding to an escalating post is a better option. The person saying **** America should deserve the 1 week ban.

And yeah, the question who started a fight is totally irrelevant. It's not like you need to 'defend' yourself against 'attacks'.

I know this sounds somewhat kindergarten but here in America, it really matter who started something. In a case of "self defense", it is ok to attack the person who just attacked you by fear of life, or emotional abuse. However, I can see how on these forums it is not needed.

Btw, haven't the forums been a lot quieter without Luck, Mecca, and Phytotron/Phytotron? <- I am still not sure which name I am supposed to use there.

[Word]

The person saying **** America should deserve the 1 week ban.

For example, to Y, this exchange must have looked like this

[Jonathan]

The person saying **** America should deserve the 1 week ban.

Not really, if it isn't to troll. I also think we'll see more of it in the future (and not just about the US) if they keep heading where they're heading. But I digress.

I know this sounds somewhat kindergarten but here in America, it really matter who started something. In a case of "self defense", it is ok to attack the person who just attacked you by fear of life, or emotional abuse. However, I can see how on these forums it is not needed.

Uhm, wouldn't that be the very problem?

[Z-Man]

Yeah. IRL, if someone gets violent, you're perfectly entitled to punch them until they stop if there is no other way (and you're getting the benefit of the doubt that there was no other way). But that's the thing. IRL, punching someone is likely to make them stop hurting you or someone else at some point. On a forum, 'hitting back' is very unlikely to make the other guy stop. So there's no reason to treat the 'defender' much kinder than the 'attacker'.

[INW]

But that's the thing. IRL, punching someone is likely to make them stop hurting you or someone else at some point. On a forum, 'hitting back' is very unlikely to make the other guy stop. So there's no reason to treat the 'defender' much kinder than the 'attacker'.

Very good point.

[Lucifer]

Besides which, self-defense is only allowed in life threatening situations. In ALL OTHER SITUATIONS, you are expected to run away. If you fight back, legally, you are part of the fight and will be charged and convicted accordingly.

Except in Texas, where you can apparently shoot people for breaking into your neighbor's house.

Since there are no life threatening situations on these forums, I think it's reasonable to expect people to run away from fights.

[Z-Man]

Except in Texas, where you can apparently shoot people for breaking into your neighbor's house.

And in Florida, you can shoot people for looking at you funny. Around here, it's generalized. If person A unlawfully harms person B or B's property right now, B is allowed to use adequate means to stop A. 'adequate' means it must be somewhat moderate, that is I can't shoot someone for walking on my lawn (shooting someone who is trying to injure me is fine, though), and it also means what B does needs to have a chance to actually stop A, which implies that the process needs to be still ongoing. Revenge is not self defense. You are not usually expected to just evade an attack. Sure, you're encouraged to consider it (it's the most moderate form of defense, after all), but if there's a tiny reason why hitting back would be better for you, you don't have to run away. With one exception: if you provoked the attack, it's your duty to evade it instead of hitting back. So no starting bar brawls by hurling taunts and getting free because you didn't hit first. You don't get away with trolling. Hey, I like those laws.

Anyway, back to forum policies. Of course, you're perfectly allowed to defend yourself/your position without escalating a fight. All it takes is a bit of calm. See sinewav, he did it right.

[apparition]

You guys should probably just stop comparing the forums to the real life. It sounds silly.

Sticking to Z-Man's No Escalating policy makes more sense than saying run away from fights, but I still think you should have a list of forum rules and stuff. Posting rules this deep in this thread won't do anything for new people will it?

By the way, I didn't even realize Mecca and Phytotron were gone Does this mean suspending works?

[Z-Man]

I still think you should have a list of forum rules and stuff. Posting rules this deep in this thread won't do anything for new people will it?

True. Only Tank can make a sticky where it counts, though. Tank? We can edit the 'Welcome' post, but a separate topic would probably be the nicer thing.

[Tank Program]

I still think you should have a list of forum rules and stuff. Posting rules this deep in this thread won't do anything for new people will it?

True. Only Tank can make a sticky where it counts, though. Tank? We can edit the 'Welcome' post, but a separate topic would probably be the nicer thing.

I'll get on that.

[compguygene]

Tank, I have never said this, but I have felt for some time there has been a need for some type of "Rules" post. Glad to see the tack you are taking. In the past, when I have run a few forums before, I used a statement as follows:

This forum is targeted to be family friendly so those people under the age of 18 will not be banned from it's use by their parents. As a parent, I am pretty tolerant. So, lets keep things PG-13, as that is the minimum age to use this forum. Personal attacks and posts that are intolerant of race, religion, or sexual orientation will NOT be tolerated, but may be deleted/edited by a Moderator or Administrator. Basically, this is supposed to be fun, not mean. So, just be nice to each other.

[Phytotron]

Of course, you're perfectly allowed to defend yourself/your position without escalating a fight. All it takes is a bit of calm. See sinewav, he did it right.

Let's highlight this. Otherwise, going by what you and Lucifer were describing, you would effectively be giving license to those who troll/flame/attack/whatever. Person X taunts/insults/harasses/antagonises Person Y. Person Y is expected to just sit back and take it. Further, if you then split and lock it, while leaving Person X's comment up, you're effectively giving them the "last word" for posterity, with little to no consequence. Even if a temporary ban follows, in their mind and to their buddies it's, "hey, so what if I got some stupid ban. I got to talk shit, he had to take it, it's up there forever. I pwn that forum!" (Or something to that effect.) Blame the victim, reward the bully.

So, I'll also second what appa said.


With respect to posting forum rules, ya know, there's that "terms of service" or "forum policy" (whatever it's titled) that is shown and supposedly agreed to when someone joins the forum. It would be worth copy&pasting that somewhere as a reminder to active users.

[apparition]

http://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtop ... 6&start=39

[gawdzilla]

we're dissallowed from calling him his old username...? out of genuine interest, why do you HATE IT SO MUCH that people call you that, Phytotron?

I don't flip out this bad when someone calls me by one of my many other names