Class of Cycle

What do you want to see in Armagetron soon? Any new feature ideas? Let's ponder these ground breaking ideas...
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Washington
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Class of Cycle

Post by Washington »

I was thinking this might be a good idea for a later version. But wanted to throw it out there.


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Class system for cycles that players can chose upon starting the game. Go into player settings and chose Class 1, through Class 4 Cycle.

The difference in a Class 1 through 4 is the binding and key set ups as well as the limitations some cycles might have.

This idea might need to be modified to those wiser than I.



Class 1 Cycle - Single Bind > Fastest Cycle, but has a lower rubber so its probably more difficult to do tricky 180's.

Class 2 Cycle - Double Bind > Fast Cycle, but has a lower rubber so it is probably more difficult to do tricky grinds, more of a rubber than the Class 1 though.

Class 3 Cycle - Tripple Bind > Slow Cycle, but has a higher rubber.

Class 4 Cycle - Quad Bind > Slowest Cycle, but has highest rubber.


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So you get the idea, its to put these settings into the game so players can work with them and have a bit of fun doing the different key bindings and see how the set ups are.



-Alan
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philippeqc
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Re: Class of Cycle

Post by philippeqc »

I'm guessing that you think double (and more) binders have an unfair advantage, and would like to "penalise" them with slower cycles, for their gain of mobility.

For me, the problem is not that double binding exist. I've seen it in a great many games, though often limited to only 2 keys per action. The problem is that it is advantagous in armagetron. Because the change in motion are instantaneous, ie: pressing the turn key make you turn instantly to a new direction, pressing 2 keys within a very short time make you turn to the second direction in a very short time.

In other games, often keys are associated with continuous action. If you press the turn key, your vehicule (car, motorcycle, plane) start to turn at a constant rate. Pressing 2 keys doesnt make it turn faster, and can actually hinder you if you need to release both to stop turning. They can also be associated with instantaneous action. Pressing the fire key fires your weapon. So what prevent you from firing 2 rockets by pressing 2 keys? Most of the time, actions will have a minimal delay before the next one can be triggered. So one must wait for his rocket launcher to reload before being able to fire it again. Thus having multiple keys to the same command doesnt advantage you in the game.

The problem with open source is just that, well, the source is open. It is hard to introduce artificial restrictions. Say someone implements your changes. What is there to stop Johnny Hacker from opening the code, finding the change, re-enabling multi binding and to grab the fast cycle ? Client restrictions are totally artificial, and therefore easily removed. Server restrictions are on the other hand, much more real.

I'd suggest you look into the configuration settings. I know there is one to restrict the minimum time that must be passed before a second turn command can be accepted. At the moment, its name eludes me, but you should be able to find it quickly on the wiki (wiki.armagetronad.net).

Then talk to the admin of your favorite server, and convince him that the change would enhance the quality of the experience, and make battling more interesting. Failing that, move your game to a server that has setting more to your likings, or even consider providing a server yourself, one that would support settings that would reduce the gain of double binding.

Of course, this is only my own little interpretation of the situation. Feel free to disagree with it. ;)

-ph
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Washington
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just in responce

Post by Washington »

Well I don't disagree with anything you have responded with.

But I will say I don't really think double or tripple binding creates an unfair advantage, because anyone can go in and do it.


I think my reasoning started out as, since people are doing it anyway, why not just include a setting that allows you to select a type of cycle. And then make that setting cool by showing off a different look for each class of cycle.

Then I thought, well if they are different classes, then they have to have something different about them, and thats why I included the speed gains/reductions and rubber gains/reductions. Because it made a little sense to me.



But you are right, in an open source kind of game, nothing would stop anyone from going in and changing the binds of the fastest cycle to be a quad bind as well, thus really defeating the point of gains/reductions.



Still, it could be open to debate on if there could just be a setting that says chose your class of cycle, which just means it auto makes it single, double, tripple, or quad bind.





I'm curious to hear what others think.
- Washington
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Jonathan
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Re: just in responce

Post by Jonathan »

Washington wrote:But you are right, in an open source kind of game, nothing would stop anyone from going in and changing the binds of the fastest cycle to be a quad bind as well, thus really defeating the point of gains/reductions.
Actually it wouldn't be possible to get a fast cycle with lots of rubber.

But I don't think your system would work out. It could do quite the opposite, and creates balance problems (even when tuned things will get erratic).

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Phytotron
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Post by Phytotron »

Um, wouldn't low speed and high rubber greatly benefit the multi-binders, not penalize them? I'd say so.

Yeah, definitely keep all that server-side. All lightcycles in a given server should be on a level playing ground, in terms of physics. No question.
philippeqc wrote:I know there is one to restrict the minimum time that must be passed before a second turn command can be accepted. At the moment, its name eludes me....
That's CYCLE_DELAY: "minimum time between turns in seconds." Setting it to 0.09 or 0.1 matches most people's ability to press a single key twice in quick succession. (Generally, that is. It's also affected by CYCLE_DELAY_TIMEBASED.) Unfortunately, most servers set it ridiculously low. If this were my game, this is one of the settings I would hard code. But anyhoo....

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wrtlprnft
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Post by wrtlprnft »

There's DOUBLEBIND_TIME, too, if you set that any second same command triggered in a given time by two different keys will be ignored.
Be aware that this is client side and easy to cheat around.
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Phytotron
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Post by Phytotron »

Yes, I greatly enjoy that setting as well—one of the best things to come of 0.2.8.x (a goddamn shame that still no servers have it permanently set). Of course, DOUBLEBIND_TIME altogether cancels out the additional simultaneous turn(s), whereas CYCLE_DELAY apparently buffers them.

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philippeqc
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Post by philippeqc »

Thanks for Phytotron and Jonathan for the great additions
If this were my game, this is one of the settings I would hard code.
How to bypass hard-coded values for people who dont know how to code, in 3 step:
a) ask your geek friend where in the code the hardcoded value is
b) type yourself the new desired value
c) give back the keyboard to your geek friend so he compiles it for you.
;)

Open source means that
a) The only restriction that can be applied are the ones that the server admin wants to apply
b) it is extremly hard to remove a capacity, as one can always get the old source code where it still existed, and re-incorporate it in the new one.

It can be extremely difficult to force new behavior. But one could try to lead by example, and _maybe_ set the default to a different value. NOTA: I do not know what a good value would mean, nor what is the default value offered in the game.
Unfortunately, most servers set it ridiculously low.
That is why one should try to talk to a server admin about changing the setting. Make yourself heard to the admin of the servers you enjoy! Or moving your game to a server that has it set up at a reasonnable setting.

-ph
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Phytotron
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Post by Phytotron »

Um, come to Shrunkland sometime, phil. :?

As for the rest of that unnecessary post dedicated to an otherwise inconsequential comment, I did type "if it were my game," not this game. It's completely irrelevant what the actual case is with this game because what I stated was obviously a fictional hypothetical, not a request or suggestion for the actual game. For cryin' out loud.

(Although, do mind you that, as is my understanding, there are a number of settings now available to admins that were once not configurable, e.g., CYCLE_SPEED_DECAY_ABOVE/BELOW, so your description is apparently not entirely accurate. Not that it matters.)

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philippeqc
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Post by philippeqc »

Phytotron wrote:Um, come to Shrunkland sometime, phil.
Thanks for the advice, I'll try it during the week end.

-ph
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joda.bot
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Post by joda.bot »

The different cycles could still be provided and enforced by the server.

Example:
The map of the server defines:

Cycle type A: Low acceleration and low cycle delay + short,strong turbo which requires much time to regenerate (1min atleast).
Cycle type B: Middle acceleration normal cycle delay.
Cycle type C: high acceleration AND very high cycle delay.

These are just example parameters, other combinations are possible.
(and z-man will reject any difficult to realize onces (i hope) )
Players might prefer different types of cycles for different tasks, for a match with 3 very different maps you might use type A for map 1 and type B for map 2 ?

If the server controls the types of cycles allowed and knows which player has which cycle type, I guess abuse is very limited and admins can control the types available.

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