some crazy ideas

What do you want to see in Armagetron soon? Any new feature ideas? Let's ponder these ground breaking ideas...
Lyx
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Re: some crazy ideas

Post by Lyx »

First, let me say that i'm a bit "between the worlds".... on the one side, i as well think that the original tron lightcycle gameplay should not be dilluted too much - and that only features should be added which fit into the original gameplay. On the other hand, i seem to have quite conflicting views and a different mentality, compared to most forum-users here... especially concerning UI, accessibility of the game to "mortals", etc.

To make it short: i believe in tiny simple twists which add new tactical possibilities instead of turning it into a different game...

juwb wrote:Hi,

first off: I've never ever seen the movie. Probably not much room for ideas if you have to stick strictly to the movie, huh?
You should see it to get an idea of what kind of feeling this game is trying to create. This is not about copying a movie - it is about copying the feeling and gameplay of that game in the movie. Armagetron comes most close to this goal, but still is far away from being there IMHO, so you should really see the movie to understand where armagetron is coming from.

juwb wrote:1. Slopes.
Bad idea IMHO. Dillutes tactical gameplay too much. Imagine the game "Go": its rules are very simple, yet still it allows incredible amounts of tactics... adding more complexity would actually ruin this strategic aspect, because the gameplay would become more "random". It's the same with your slopes idea for armagetron.
2. Floor types
Same as 1.
3. Powerups
This could partially be interesting. But not the ammunition and stuff idea - this is not a shooter, its a tactical game - the fact alone that you propose shooting tells me that you didn't understand what armagetron is about at its core. I'll say it again, think about armagetron like a chess or go game... but with a higher speed-rush ;-) So, it is NOT a typical action-game.... its a fast-paced tactical game in a arcade-shell.

4. Obstacles
I cannot think of how this could improve gameplay, considering that non-squarish arenas are already planned, which will also allow to have "barriers" in the arena.
5. Wraparound mode
Very good idea. This is the kind of "feature" which i think is right in armagetron: minor adjustment, many new tactical possibilities.
6. Map editor
I think i'd prefer more prebundled arenas which are polished and playtested over a map-editor. I like the idea of having a limited number of high-quality maps on which people can focus tournament-style and develop map-specific tactics....... instead of having dozens of seemingly random and amateurish maps.
7. Health bar instead of rubber/crash?
Again, this is a tactical game, not an ego-shooter or typical action-game. Besides, i cannot think of how this could improve gameplay - it only adds complexity and makes it easier, nothing else..... oh, and it makes it look rather strange.
8. Melee game mode
Good idea. Again, simple change, maximum tactical value.
9. Top-down (bird's eye) camera
I think what you describe should be implemented more or less into the upcoming minimap of the HUD.


Now, for my personal ideas, i have to agree with someone else, who said that better graphics and more polished UI and gameplay will make the highest difference in attracting new players.

And, since we are in a feature-thread already, i'd like to repeat my feature proposal for bringing the race-like atmosphere of tron into armagetron: Add the option of boosters instead of brakes to the game, damnit.... not to the console, not to config files..... casual new players dont use those.... but fully visible into the menus. For those who didn't read my description of that feature in another thread: The idea is to lower the general speed a bit, then add boosters to the game. These boosters would not bring you from slow to topspeed in 1second..... instead, they are more like "accelerators". They would have a limited energy-resource, just like the brakes, except that with the boosters the reserve would be like 5-10seconds.

The result are close-combat "races" between players, just like in the movie. Since the boosters have a limited (but refilling) resouce, it also adds tactical value: you need to household with your boosters, to not be at a disadvantage when you really need them badly. Also, using the boosters would be a two-sided sword: it allows you to be faster than others, but it also makes it more difficult for you to survive in labyrinth-type situations.
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Post by Tank Program »

Very good comments Lyx.

What about mines?
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Post by Lucifer »

Well, not only have I seen the movie dozens of times, but the first 5 times or so that I saw it was in the theater. :)

And I think lasers would rule. Mind you, I'm not looking for lasers as "shoot the cycle". Cycles are too fast and have no mass, and you can't hit something that lacks mass. Walls, on the other hand, have mass. And setting a maximum temperature before the wall will melt means you have to keep the laser centered on a piece of wall for a period of time. Then what happens when you grind the hot wall and your cycle overheats? Hmmmm..... Yeah, I think lasers would add something interesting to the game.

BUt I also think that any shooter-style addition is going to be a neat novelty that nobody ever plays with. Just like brakes....

To provide the accelerator you're wanting, I'd just copy the brake code. In fact I might even do that, how hard can that be? ;) Copy the brake settings to new names, and its done. Let the admins tweak it until satisfied. (Although I don't think they had an accelerator in the movie, if you've ever done laps you know that when the two cycles run side by side they behave just like in the movie)

I don't think topology would dilute the game too much. But we'll have a better idea after we see what kinds of maps people play on. Right now there's only one server running a map I'm aware of, and that's a very basic map (and will be reset to square before the end of the week, it's not time to make that change, I just did it to show the mapmaker his creation). So let's see some more complex maps, the map rotation thing, and so forth. If we get more complex maps with mazes and fighting chambers and stuff, then I think it'll be safe to say that topology will add something to the game and will be worth having.

Also consider that the movie gets real exciting when they leave the grid and you see the countryside. I want that! I want to drive my light cycle through canyons of light and see rivers of power, cataracts and so forth. Big panoramic views, I've got 1280x800, I want to see it all!

I'm not a big fan of powerups. I prefer "drive over the square and the door opens" sorts of things to powerups. Don't give me a key, I don't want it! Open the door I'm trying to go through instead.

As for obstacles, we're finding on the Crack Pipe that the inverted cross layout adds some interesting challenges. Going around a corner can be hazardous to your health. :) Also, there's no place left to hide. So obstacles are going to be all about how good the map is and what the purpose of the server is. I'd like more ingame eye candy that could be defined as "obstacles", too. :)

I don't like the health bar idea either, and for pretty much the same reasons. I wouldn't mind if there were things that didn't exactly kill you, like if you fell into a lake and had to ride around on the bottom of the lake until you could find a ramp that would take you out, you know, things that don't kill you but make you wish they had.
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crazy ideas continued

Post by Washington »

This is my first visit to the forums, and the fist topic I've visted and I just thought I would post some follow up crazy ideas. I'm not sure if they are possible but I think I would enjoy seeing them in the game.


Trail Mines: This is an expansion of the mines idea, but instead of a "mine" simply create a hotkey that will allow a player to release a trail mine, which means that a portion, perhaps 100 to 200 of his trail length has a side affect to anyone who grinds that part of the trail (since grinding is such a big part of the game). This would be something that other players could see as well, as maybe from a grafics point you could make the trail glow a different color, perhaps hot green. The trail mines could range, like if you grind along a green trail mine it slows you down, if you grind along a pink trail mine it speeds you up, or if you grind along a white trail line it burns all your rubber (perhaps)

you guys could play with the idea of trail mines and also make it where players start off with one random trail mine each game, meaning you never know what kind of trail mine you might have in your invitory or hot key. So the trail mine is always the same key, but does something different each game you play.




Escaping the Grid: Now I always found it fun to escape the grid, perhaps you guys could incorperate this into the game more often. Or incorperate something useful into this. It was appart of the movie and I think it would be fun if you could make it a ability thats hard to achieve. It has been done (probably not through any purpouseful game code) but I've seen people rip the wall before where I've been able to go beyond the wall.

That had no purpose but maybe a purpose could be had in it where when you escape the grid your wall vanishes, and you are allowed to do one rotation around the grid until you are led back into it, or maybe a trail forces you to go in one direction until you reach the grid opening again, that would be up to you guys to play with it, just something I wouldn't mind seeing and something thats fun when your boared and want something new from armagetron.





First person view: I was showing my friend Armagetron and he is a big tron fan, when I told him about the game he really wanted the first person view. Is their any way to make the first person view better? I've tired playing in first person and its really hard, mostly because I think the camera is right at the tip of the front wheal, if its possible to pull the camera back some in firt person view maybe it will make the view a little easyer , maybe where the camera is behind the drivers seat, of course for that you might have to show some grafics of driver hands or maybe the wheal to give the viewer some depth perception. So he knows when hes too close, but I thinkt he First person view, if enhanced, would bring some more players to the game.





hope that helps some.

thanks

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Post by Walking Tree »

i've seen the movie.

generally, I stand to 'keep it to the movie'.
maps and idea no 5 are features that cannot be called orthodox, but they
enhance the game tactically, but don't break the feeling.
idea no 8 is tricky. it partially conflicts with the principle of rounds. it's fun because you have the choice of either watching or jumping into the game with the risk of being teleported into a wall. this would also enable to jump into gameplay when you enter the server. to make it easier/ less boring (when two super players are duelling for hours) for less able players, there should be a 'death time limit'. say - you cannot spawn for the first 30 secs after being cored.


floors, slants, ans powerups might be fun, but would be a totally different game.

a cubed arena (where you can drive up walls) is basically the same as arena looping (idea 5), but gives you more tactical possibitities.

now to acceleration and missed film features.
without some sort of boosters the arma acceleration model is not quite correct. in the film, there is a short stretch where two cycles keep overtaking each other. GLTron (our worthless oposition) has implemented boosters and wall acceleration. and maybe brakes, too.
Cycles have a width. This does not apply to arma, but to the film:

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|       |
|   ^   |
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in the film, the middle cycle crashes. in arma it would not.
in the film, walls have a width, too, but this is highly irrelevant.

and, yes, excess energy is better spent in graphics and 'realism in gameplay'.
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Post by Lyx »

Lucifer wrote:To provide the accelerator you're wanting, I'd just copy the brake code. In fact I might even do that, how hard can that be? ;)
Actually, i did just that to test if that idea really works as intended. What i did was the following:
- lowered the overall speed by about 25%
- changed the brakes to a negative value... low enough to make it more like acceleration instead of a sudden boost, but high enough to make a difference in close-combat after about 3secs... therefore giving the opposing player a time-window to react.
- changed the "brake"-reserves so that they would last for about 8secs, and refill at about half the speed of depletion.

The CPU-players of course didn't get it (but the AI is one of armagetron's weaknesses anyways). However, playing with those settings in LAN-multiplayer resulted exactly in what i tried to achieve... when two players duell each other, then they would each try to raise their speed, to get an edge over the other player.... but because of trying to get the other player into ones own wall, and the other way around, they would not use the booster constantly... but instead in short "bursts"(i.e. "boost->turn->boost->multiple turns->boost, etc."). And i can say that the adrenaline-rush of doing close combat while both combatants accelerate, therefore raising the "bet" in the combat... for sure came close to the feeling which i got when seeing those fights in the movie ;-)

Anyways - the code is mostly already in the game. Its just a matter of doing a bit copy'n paste and adding it to the menus.... unless you also want the AI to stay competitive when boosters are enabled in the gamerules, then it would become a bit more complicated.

My proposal on how to add it to the menus would be the following(i'll be a bit rude and reorganize the game setup menu while i'm at it, hehe):

Game Setup:
- Players & Teams... (submenu)
- Cycle-Behavior... (submenu)
- Arena & Gameplay... (submenu)

Players & Teams:
- Min. players
- Min. teams
- Max. teams
- Min. players per team
- Max. players per team
- Max. temporary imbalance
- Max. permanent imbalance
- Balance with AIs
- Balance on quit
- <---seperator if technically possible--->
- AI-players at beginning (renamed from "AI-Players")
- AI-IQ at beginning (renamed from "AI-IQ")
- Auto-adjust AI-players (renamed from "Auto-AI")
- Auto-adjust AI-IQ (renamed from "Auto-IQ")


Cycle-Behavior:
- Speed
- Allow brakes
- Brake-strength (the rate at which brakes slow down the cycle)
- Brake-capacity (the number of secs it takes the brakes to empty the energy-reserves)
- Allow boosters
- Booster-strength (the rate at which boosters accelerate the cycle)
- Booster-capacity (the number of secs it takes the boosters to empty the energy-reserves)
- Energy refill-rate (brakes and boosters both consume from the same "energy"-resource. The option here determines the number of secs it takes the energy to refill from "empty" to "full")
- enable wall-acceleration (already in the config-files - we merely make it available in the menus)
- <---seperator if technically possible--->
- Wall length
- Wall delay after death (renamed from "Wall delay")
- Blast radius


Arena & Gameplay:
- Game-Mode
- Finish-Mode
- Win-zone min. last death
- Win-zone min. round time
- Arena Size
- Arena-Queue... (for future use when multiple arenas are available)

Also consider that the movie gets real exciting when they leave the grid and you see the countryside. I want that! I want to drive my light cycle through canyons of light and see rivers of power, cataracts and so forth. Big panoramic views, I've got 1280x800, I want to see it all!
While this does sound exciting, did you also notice in the movie, that the cycles do not have walls anymore afterwards, and the "gameplay" changes? Personally, i have similiar feelings about what you write: i think that such "maps" will not work good in the current gameplay. But they may become interesting, if an additional gameplay mode gets added to armagetron: "Race". Such a completely new gameplay-mode would definatelly need good planing and completely new ideas to make it exciting yet still different to "yet-another-racing-game". There is also the possibility to make such a gameplay-mode more like a team-sports game...... no, not another CTF-game, but i guess you get the basic idea :)
I'm not a big fan of powerups. I prefer "drive over the square and the door opens" sorts of things to powerups.
I completely agree. That would also look much better in the current gamedesign: special fields on the grid which have an instant-effect.
What about mines?
I'm not certain about it. I tend towards "doesn't fit into the game"... at least not in the current gameplay-modes. If on the other hand were talking about possible future-gamemodes then it may look completely different. For some reason, the ability for a lightcycle to lay mines just doesnt fit into the game for me...... but there is also another way to do it - do not let the cycle lay the mines, but instead lay the mines beforehand on the map and let cycles be able to activate them so that they can be triggered when someone comes near it the next time (points towards the earlier "special fields on the grid"-idea)

I guess as long as one looks at armagetron like a sports/tactical arcade game, instead of a "combat-game", most questions automatically lead to the right answers. Its maybe not a coincidence that almost all games in the movie were as well sports-/gladiator-like.

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Post by Lyx »

Walking Tree wrote: Cycles have a width. This does not apply to arma, but to the film:

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   ^ ^
   | |
   | |
 __| |__
|       |
|   ^   |
|   |   |
|   |   |
|   |   |
in the film, the middle cycle crashes. in arma it would not.
in the film, walls have a width, too, but this is highly irrelevant.

and, yes, excess energy is better spent in graphics and 'realism in gameplay'.
Which leads to another issue - the current gamegrid is NOT a grid!
What i mean with this is that while you have gridlines on the floor, they are nothing else than decoration - a cycle can turn at any point it wants to and the "grid" in reality has infinite positions.

This leads to several problems:
- your above shown example. If cycles could only turn at grid-intersections... and if the distance between those intersections is right... then it would automatically solve the "width" problem as well... this is similiar to the next one.......

- wall-grinding. You never see it in the movie. Should it be "in"? Probably a matter of taste. IMHO it should not, just like double-binding of keys. Some may cry holy-murder now, but lets asume for a moment that those "features" are unwanted: If cycles could only turn at intersections, then both - wall-grinding as well as double-binding would not be a problem. There also would be no "do i still fit between the gap or not?"-situations.

- the idea of special fields on the map. Without clear "paths" which the cycles can take(can only turn on intersections), you will get stupid situations where you miss the special field by 2 pixels or similiar.

- not sure about this one: the absense of "infinite" turning-points may make it easier to give the AI some ***** pathfinding-sense.

- last but not least: it just looks stupid if there can be 4 walls next to each other with just a few pixels distance.

So, what i am actually proposing is to make arenas tile-based.... not tile-based as in 2d-tiles, but tile-based as in how the map and gameplay works:

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+---+---+-+-+---+
|t  |   | | |   |
|i  |   | | |   |
|le |   | | |   |
+---+---+-+-+---+
|   |   | | |   |
|   |   | +-+---+-Cycle-Path
|   |   |   |   |
+---+---+---+---+
|   |   |   |   |
|   |   |   |   |
|   |   |   |   |
+---+---+---+---+
In the above example, the tile-borders and cycle-path/turning points are shifted 50%. That way, if a cycle wants to hit a certain tile(i.e. a special field), then you wont get situation where the cycle "grinds" the border of the tile. If the tiles are small enough, then the player will not even notice, that he cannot turn at will - it would just seem that "as by magic" his cycle always turns at the correct points. One could make the distance between intersections for example the same as the length of a cycle... and you get the "cycle-width" as a pseudo-feature automatically.

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Post by Walking Tree »

making it tile based would probably be good, yes. but I don't see how this solves the solutin to the cycle width problem.

Code: Select all

| : tile border
--- : tile border
=== : cycle wall
=v : cycle wall turns down
=^ : cycle wall turns up
>= : cycle wall goes right
=} : cycle

--- --- --- --- ---
===|===|=v |   |   |
--- --- --- --- ---
   |   | >=|===|=} |
--- --- --- --- ---
===|=} |   |   |   |
--- --- --- --- ---
   |   | >=|===|=} |
--- --- --- --- ---
===|===|=^ |   |   |
--- --- --- --- ---
in the film, the middle cycle crashed. this means we would have to make a cycle 3 tiles wide (if one tile = one cycle length : thrice wider than long)
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Post by Lyx »

The answer is much more simple: the two leading cycles would actualle "enclose" the 3rd cycle so that there is no "tile" left for the 3rd cycle to "pass through".

The reason why this would happen has to do with the scale of the tiles: if their size would be aprox. the length of a cycle...... and the two leading cycles would make that maneuvre... then - technically - they would end up driving exactly on neighbouring tiles....... so, no free tile left between them.... and therefore no room for a 3rd cycle between them.

The main point is to get the size of the tiles right... if they're small enough, but not too small.... then this would actually be realistic, because the gap between two tiles would be too small for a cycle to fit through(because of cycle-width)

One could even reuse the "grinding"-animation for a nice death animation: if the 3rd cycle would still try to pass through it... therefore hitting exactly the wall-corner of one of the 2 leading cycles...... then one could make the 3rd cycle grind and get out of balance for a few metres and then let it explode :) Matter of taste i guess, just an idea.
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Post by Walking Tree »

might be nice... i'm still in favour of bouncing tyres.
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just in an after thought

Post by Washington »

Many of us want to explore beyond the grid sometimes, but theirs no real practicle since for it and plus your supposed to lose your wall if you do.

I say this, if a bike that is going over speeds of 100 strikes a wall it will explode and create a small opening thats large enough for other bikes to enter. If another bike then enters its wall would then dissapear and you could drive away from the grid, the goal outside would be to find that rotating circle that ends the match, and if you enter that area the match is over and you have won. It would just be another way to end the match or something.

Thats the only practical thing I can think of to have outside the gird, also if you add mines maybe you could make them permanent outside the grid, so cycles have to swerve to avoid them.
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Post by Walking Tree »

I'm against mines. We don't want to encourage people to bomb others. and it's pretty unlike TRON.
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Re: just in an after thought

Post by Lyx »

Washington wrote:I say this, if a bike that is going over speeds of 100 strikes a wall it will explode and create a small opening thats large enough for other bikes to enter. If another bike then enters its wall would then dissapear and you could drive away from the grid, the goal outside would be to find that rotating circle that ends the match, and if you enter that area the match is over and you have won. It would just be another way to end the match or something.
Or even easier to implement: make it instant-win once you go through the hole of the walls.

But there is a problem: It can be abused in teamplay... teammate1 catapults himself via cycle-walls to topspeed, crashes into the arena-walls, teammate2 leaves grid, instant-win. Booooring.
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Post by Lucifer »

Ok, if you want to crack the wall open, that's fine. What's on the other side?

There are two possibilities to that question.

1. More space in which the fight can continue to proceed.
2. Other stuff, a city, a world, whatever

If the answer is 1, then we have one requirement, which is that there must be an impenetrable boundary at some point, after which a cycle may not proceed. Which brings us back to "It'd be nice if when you hit the outer wall hard enough you could crack a hole into it". At some point, a line must be drawn to remain within the parameters of the game.

If the answer is 2, then the game is no longer a sports game, it's a sports game with an easter egg role-playing game. Now, making a roleplaying game that derives from breaking open the grid is fine, but I don't know that anyone intends to do it, so you'll have to come up with a way to build it in as an expansion, maybe by helping to generalize the code to be more like an engine for other games and then developing a game on top of that engine. That's cool, I'd love to see something like that.

So make up your mind which one of these choices you want and start working on it. :) (Choice 1 is easy, just ask phillippe for a wall on a map that can be broken if hit with enough energy and ask z-man to add in some intertial simulation so that an object's intertia can be calculated and the damage determined in philippe's wall. Choice 2 is a whole other project)

Edit: On mines, the game already supports mines. See, whenever your cycle moves, he leaves behind him a particular piece of matter that, when something hits it, caused them to explode. It's called a wall. What purpose would a mine serve? The fundamental "meaning" of mine is "leave something behind me that will kill anyone who follows me". What's the fundamental purpose of the wall? "leave something behind and attempt to kill people with it".

I like the idea of having spaces/points on the grid that cause different effects, such as a space that sucks inertia from you (aka a "swamp"), or a space that causes instant death (aka "quicksand"), but I don't know that there's a reason to have the player control creating these spaces. One of the things that makes the game so much fun is that players can only move, they can't directly do anything else. They can't fire guns, they can't drop mines, none of that stuff. So within that parameter, seems like a mine would be a square where you can drive over it just fine, and then for the next n seconds any cycle that drives over it explodes.
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Post by philippeqc »

Edit: oups, two "against" message in a row. Anyone who tryed to present new ideas might want to take a small break between them, or just skip over mine. ;)

------------------------------

about the "grid" topic: Grids restrict heavily movement. Its the difference between moving freely in Wolfenstein 3D and other much older "maze shooter" where the possibilities where "move foward/backward one wall unit, turn right/left 90 degrees".

When I played glTron some years ago, I had a strong feeling that my actions where limited to some grid on the floor. That wasn't the thing for me. Might I suggest that you check out the latest version (or maybe some old ones) of glTron and see if that relates to the feeling your looking for?

As for the tunnel that get closed scene from the movie, it was a cool scene because it was the first time the public was introduced to such a scene. But in today's game, I dont know many players that would, if stuck in such a tunnel, just wait for the players in front of them close it in their face. Better die trying to u-turn yourself to freedom!

The aspect that could be taken from this scene is not any grid behavior, but rather uses a cycle width. Trap someone with an exit smaller than his bike's width, and he is truly trapped.

On the topic of "it has to be like in the movie". Well the movie has a dramatic representation of a game that has never been played before. Thought to make it fit to a real game.

Grinding it NOT in the movie, but in my opinion it is what makes this game so fun (the accelerating by following a trace aspect, not the squishing yourself in the nanometer between 2 walls).

While its true that games like counter-strike are very close to the military reality they depict, I dont recall seing any discovery show about SEAL training where you would see them runing on a battle field, jump, do a 360 in mid air to spot enemies pick-up their long range riffle, shoot a paper target in the head using the scope and drop their weapons all before landing on their feet. But that is what makes that game fun.

So while we might dismiss an idea of incoporating a frog trying to cross an highway and a river with crocodiles as "not really respecting the idea presented in the movie", I dont think we should bind us to the letter of the movie. Grab on to the spirit of a game dreamt 30 years ago, and lets see where i can lead us.

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