Who is this release for?

What do you want to see in Armagetron soon? Any new feature ideas? Let's ponder these ground breaking ideas...
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Lucifer
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Who is this release for?

Post by Lucifer »

So, I've been wrestling with this question. Sinewav asked it in the most perfunctory way when he pointed out that my recent reappearance indicated that development on the game might happen, and people wanted that to happen, but instead, drama.

So, looking at what's happened since then, I have a question. But first, some background.

Tank Program hasn't written a line of code in 10 years (barring some statistical work he did). Z-man is busy, period. He's got Z-girl to take care of, he may have some time periodically to do work, but he's going to want to be a lookout man, not a code-monkey.

Which means, if there's going to be an 0.4 release, *I* am the one who has to step up and make it happen.

I'm happy to do that. I know that Z-man will be watching over me, catching stupid bugs that I should now better, etc. Tank will be happy to update the site with my progress.

Those are no problems.

The problem is, who am I going to release 0.4 to? There's been a spate of white supremicism here, a bit of sexism, and nothing else. WHO am I releasing 0.4 to?

Exactly, who is this release for?

Is it to assuage my own guilt? Is it t show Z-man that he's not the only one who can manage a release?

Who's going to play it? Who is this release for?
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Tank Program
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Re: Who is this release for?

Post by Tank Program »

Some philosophical ponderings, but I'd say the release has to be for you in the end. Do it because you want to and it's fun for you, not because you have to.
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Re: Who is this release for?

Post by Word »

You don't owe anything to anyone here. That said, if the game manages to attract/form better people in the future, then something is accomplished.

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Re: Who is this release for?

Post by Durf »

@word, "better" in is perspective. Let's not even start on the different viewpoints people have on that. As a subjective matter, it can't be relied upon to define a video game's community. (not to mention that you'd be purposely shutting out certain players just for being who they are... we can all play the same game)

@Lucifer, what does that matter?
Ignoring that you were reading in between the lines way too much to find what you were looking for...
Even if there were 300 new players/developers to join in on the project, each of them proud to be a white supremacist, how does that translate to them being undeserving of a game update you can provide?
Is the game not for everyone? For all peoples?
(being something you don't agree with doesn't mean they are trying to convert you or enforce their beliefs onto you - they, like anyone else, are here to play a game)

Also there's at least a few users that would like to contribute to the project. Wouldn't it be prudent to offer help in learning Armagetron's makeup to those users?
There may already be docs somewhere, I haven't looked, but I'm talking about direct assistance by more experienced users to the lesser experienced. Answering questions and providing guidance such that we end up with a better development team.
Not saying that you haven't offered help or anything.
Just seems like from your posts that you want to do this solo.

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Re: Who is this release for?

Post by Word »

Durf, I think this is the kind of topic where all of us should take a back seat. One is supposed to provide a subjective opinion here - what do the game, the community, people mean to you? From the looks of how those last topics went (virtually everyone disagrees with your views but nonetheless you're obstinate and tenacious) and what Z-Man said later, not much - even though you contributed some code. I won't take part in this debate anew - everything that could be said to you has been said and nobody is asking you to become a civil rights activist. However, you should consider that you're likely part of the reason Lucifer wrote this at all. This thread, I guess, is kind of an ultimatum for you and everyone else.
Last edited by Word on Sun Jan 11, 2015 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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takburger
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Re: Who is this release for?

Post by takburger »

As far as I know, you missed one possibility, Lucifer :)

We could also have a random dev working on a release. This is open source after all, anyone is welcomed to work on the project.

Anyway, work on it if you find it worthy for you.
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Re: Who is this release for?

Post by Word »

A random dev would face the same question sooner or later (plus, there is no random dev here - but Lucifer is).

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Re: Who is this release for?

Post by blondie »

when I started playing this game, I couldn't write a line of any code whatsoever. The first language I learned was bbcode on the forums. Then xml to make maps and cockpits. I learned wiki formatting when I adapted some tennis bracket for the Ladle. Then I learned the html and css and how to install php software to run a forum or team website. Then I learned more php to make elo things. I made a php script to strip stats from aarecs and log them into a database. I made four versions and my coding got better every time. This fall I learned how to write server scripts, and wrote several, including one that manages fort pickup (!add, team assignment, ready, remove, all that stuff and stat tracking) within an Armagetron server. I know some rudimentary C++ after doing a long web tutorial on it. This game has led me to learn almost everything I know about coding.

But I can't even compile it. I'm on a Mac. I've been told to stay away the Mac Xcode project that comes in the MacOS directory. Ok, I'll stay away. Can't compile through command line either. And I know about libraries and all of that. I admire all the CT and AP branches and hacks, and no doubt they've added some cool features, but everything they've added is basically for servers. Normal clients get the benefit of those additions when they play in those servers, but the clients themselves, afaik, aren't much changed. It seems to me that the majority of changes over the past few years have been stuff on the server-side. Scripting is fantastic.

I think the single most important thing and the single most valuable thing is cleaning things up. Every six months or thereabouts I download source and start looking around. What is something arbitrary I can change and then compile and then see the change in the game? Some foothold, and something not in a config or language file. That approach doesn't work, because I can't compile the game. Maybe I'm just an idiot on a macintosh, but if this was a open source project where you could just download the source, and it would consistently build, I bet the state of development would not be so reliant on the same few people it has always been reliant on.

so, to the original question: Who is the release for?

It should be for the people who are going to make the next release. Sustainability, documentation, commenting. If this all sounds misplaced, then I'd love someone to walk me through each file of the project so that I can understand it better than the monolith in 2001.

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Re: Who is this release for?

Post by Durf »

Word wrote:Durf, I think this is the kind of topic where all of us should take a back seat. One is supposed to provide a subjective opinion here - what do the game, the community, people mean to you?
Aren't you contradicting yourself here? I shouldn't post - oh but I can post why not?
My point about the subjective viewpoint being unreliable is that the overall viewpoint the public has will change as the population changes.
What I was questioning was why "who is the game for" even matters in the first place. This is a game. People play it. He's basically saying that he won't update the game unless he approves of the community and who's in it.
So no, word, you take a back seat. I'm going to ask Lucifer why it matters. I'd like to know what the purpose of this thread is.

Word wrote:From the looks of how those last topics went (virtually everyone disagrees with your views but nonetheless you're obstinate and tenacious) and what Z-Man said later, not much - even though you contributed some code. I won't take part in this debate anew - everything that could be said to you has been said and nobody is asking you to become a civil rights activist.
Word...it's not an opinion when you're talking about definitions of words. Those are FACTS. That is something objective and anyone can learn it. Check again who is being stubborn. When you say "everyone", that's a bit presumptuous, don't you think?
Considering the prejudice and discrimination I get over people MISINTERPRETING what I say, do you think anyone feels comfortable publicly stating their opinions now? Please.. I've been judged and accused for things that people went out of their way to find. I've stated that my opinions were not to be mentioned for that reason; I haven't stated an opinion on any of the recent topics...only facts.
Also, I wasn't trying to be a civil rights activist. I just have a higher threshold for intolerance and bigotry. And even if I was a civil rights activist...so what? I can be who I want to be. You can't ban a person for being something you disagree with - you can ban them for actions they take against the rules. I took no such actions.
Word wrote:However, you should consider that you're likely part of the reason Lucifer wrote this at all. This thread, I guess, is kind of an ultimatum for you and everyone else.
If you're suggesting that he thinks I am a white supremacist, and a sexist, then I don't disagree. I know he thinks that; he wants it to be true so badly that he already believes it.
How would he know if I white or not? Don't you think it's a little ridiculous to make such assumptions?
Also, (assuming this all came from that Nazi talk) I haven't actually stated my personal viewpoint on the matter. For all anyone knows, I might be Nazi or I might not be. But why does that matter anyway?
Lastly, any sexism associated with me has not been proven or justified. Even Z-Man changed the reasoning for my original ban from sexism to harassment (also not proven).

If I were to consider that he wrote this because of me, then I would only further question him why he wrote it in the first place. Seems to me like he is driven by obsession (hates me).

If this thread is an ultimatum of sorts, what are the options? To have him develop or not?
Even if I was the sole cause for him choosing not to develop...why does everyone else deserve that?

My question to Lucifer remains. Personally I feel that his bias and prejudice are reaching new limits.
But let's see what he has to say...



@blondie. Glad to see you get something out of your hobby. I too have learned more about coding because of tron giving me things to do. I agree with you. This is an open source project and "who it's for" should be focused on both players and developers.
blondie wrote:It should be for the people who are going to make the next release. Sustainability, documentation, commenting. If this all sounds misplaced, then I'd love someone to walk me through each file of the project so that I can understand it better than the monolith in 2001.
^ completely agree.

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Re: Who is this release for?

Post by Word »

Aren't you contradicting yourself here?
No. "Take a back seat" as in "don't continue the earlier debate and turn this into another flame war, and stop victimizing yourself".

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compguygene
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Re: Who is this release for?

Post by compguygene »

Tank Program wrote:Some philosophical ponderings, but I'd say the release has to be for you in the end. Do it because you want to and it's fun for you, not because you have to.
QFT

But, who else? I would say 3 groups of people that may be of interest to you and a motivator, as opposed to the demotivating things you have mentioned.

People that frequent these forums, but have remained mostly, if not entirely silent during said drama. Personally, I was of the opinion that I had nothing that I could add in a positive way. The only hope I saw was in the moderators doing their job. Most of these people have seemed to be pretty reasonable people.

People that play the game and do not frequent these forums. There are many who play fortress/sumo and don't ever read these forums. There are even more people that play HR, DF, Fasttrak, YellowSub, etc. that with just a few exceptions never come here. They to love the game and play regularly. They are an important part of the overall player base.

People that download the game for the first time and have a crappy experience right now, that could have a better one with some of the new features in .4 like tutorials that are designed to grab their attention and build their skills. This might do more to grow the player base than anything else.

If I were you, those are the people that I would think of when coding a feature or fixing a bug. Your work can make a lot a people have just a little more happiness in their lives. As a creative person, perhaps that could be something for you to take pleasure in.
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Re: Who is this release for?

Post by Phytotron »

Something I posted just over a year ago:
I have all these textures that I made over the years, ranging from random stuff to themed collections (including my incomplete yet still sizable JSRF-inspired suite). I've wanted to distribute them for folks to use since it would seem a shame for that amount of work to just go by the wayside with only myself only ever having seen them. But I look at the character of this game's "community" now and I just think, "you all don't deserve them." Not that the textures are anything special, but just that I don't want to do favors for these people. It's really disappointing.
So I reckon I relate. I don't really know what to tell you. I still haven't released them and am still debating whether I ever want to.


As an aside, I also want to answer the basic question (Who is this release for?) a different way, not particularly related to your reservations. It's a point I've been getting at for some time now, many years, really: The release should be for players, not for programmers. Since it's not exactly within the topic or scope of this thread I'll leave it at that for now, but can elaborate on what I mean by that later if you want.


*****

Durf, seriously, you need to stop. Just stop.
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Re: Who is this release for?

Post by Monkey »

If recent events on these forums have affected you that much then you really don't want to see who currently plays this game on the servers themselves; there is plenty of homophobia, sexism, racism and rude comments and behaviours. I can't tell you how many times I have heard the word "gay" used in a derogatory fashion while playing this game. Of course there are people who don't participate in the above but from my own experience of this game, things aren't getting any better. However, maybe in the future you could introduce features/systems that would help to reduce these issues.
Lucifer wrote:Is it to assuage my own guilt?
What is it that you feel guilty of/for?

I probably haven't been that positive towards you recently due to how I feel Durf has been treated (and IMO misunderstood), however, I think I should add some positivity at this point. This is the best game that I have ever played (and believe me I have played many in my time) and that is thanks to the developers, of which you are one. I would like to thank you and the other devs, not just for the game itself but for the extra effort you have put in, for example organising and running the AFL a while back, recording Ladles, etc.
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Re: Who is this release for?

Post by Light »

compguygene wrote:There are even more people that play DF that with just a few exceptions never come here.
Yay! I'm one of your few exceptions. Does this make me special?

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Re: Who is this release for?

Post by Agility »

I myself would love to play this release. I have been playing since about 2008. One tutorial could even be informative and maybe explain to new players how to get to this forum. Anyway I appreciate what you devs go through and I for one think updating the game with this release would be cool. I believe it would appeal to new players more and maybe possibly this could be the spark to help growing this community bigger. As for players if you don't like rude players surround yourself with other players that are more nice.

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