Fort Start

Anything about how you get those awesome core-dumps, or why you don't get them...
Word
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Re: Fort Start

Post by Word »

vov wrote:Why is pos. 2 too slow, he's sweep and can close the rim or whatever...
because his counterpart is fast enough to pass him once he reaches the other half of the arena. your team's 2 won't have time to block center and go back to block the left side (yes, I know there's still a def but then again you can just center it). whatever position 2 tries to do is completely insignificant to the opposing position 3 if it turns like this.
vov wrote:And why is def damaged twice when someone dies?
an experienced defender can handle dead trails when they occur 8 to 4 seconds before he is about to reach his trail's end (because the trails disappear after 8 seconds). If these trails disappear later, you need to make the def smaller. Since your team's defender has already shrinked to be able to drive around 3/6 (player positions) he's useless once he reaches the dead trail of position 2, means he has already lost at least 1/3 (one third) of the zone. sumo time!
vov wrote:Exactly the way you want the enemy team to attack, "this" team can attack, too.
no. they can try to center attack, but their opponents' def/sweep will be prepared for everything until then. it's an unnecessary risk and a big waste of time.
vov wrote:In my opinion, you have not understood it, really.
:roll: thanks for sharing. I'm sorry for having dashed your hopes.

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vov
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Re: Fort Start

Post by vov »

Maybe it's not that good as a permanent strategy, okay. But you obviously missed this point:
vov wrote:Best would be, then, to mix this strategy up with the "normal" one to completely surprise the other team.
What would a completely surprised team do, never having seen this anywhere before? Think about it for twenty minutes, squish it into a nice forums post and make everyone read it? Not really :)
I'm tired to argue about all these things that *may* work or not, my point is if they work, they do work. If you completely fail anything on fort in a serious match, okay, the round is most likely over, I agree to that. Why do you assume this imaginary team to be completely stupid and do that?
2020 wrote:try them
:)

sure
players have been kicking these kind of ideas about
but few get a team willing enough to try
and even when that happens
to try it properly and not judge prematurely

i still believe a team that can chop and change its launch
and introduce quite radically different splits
present opponents with real problems

good luck :)
+1
I see this as a suggestion to anyone to try something new, not to discuss and reject only because Word says it.

Word
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Re: Fort Start

Post by Word »

I have spent some time to clarify my (fact-bound...) points. You don't have to be angry about me if you're not able to defend your idea in an objective way.
vov wrote:What would a completely surprised team do, never having seen this anywhere before?
They would pulpify your team in 20 seconds or less.

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vov
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Re: Fort Start

Post by vov »

Word wrote:I have spent some time to clarify my (fact-bound...) points. You don't have to be angry about me if you're not able to defend your idea in an objective way.
If you're not able to attack Cheese's idea (not mine originally LOL) in an objective way, don't attack anyone but the team who tries it. I am no more willing to spend my time to defend Cheese and have you get that into your head.
You have made your point so we all know your team won't do this. Please don't try to teach others about stuff you have never seen or tried. In fact, I've never seen it, too, I just want to say that Cheese has not had any bad ideas. I just try to support this idea. If you say it's crap, fine, some others might take it.
Word wrote:
vov wrote:What would a completely surprised team do, never having seen this anywhere before?
They would wipe your team out in 20 seconds or less.
a) not "my" team, Cheese's team or whoever tries it
b) "fact-bound"? *looks up* :roll:

I hope this is closed now unless someone wants to add something or you, Word, want to complain some more.

Word
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Re: Fort Start

Post by Word »

Find some valid counter-arguments. You posted your idea here, i gave you some sort of feedback. if you don't like anyone to comment on it, you shouldn't have posted it in the first place. I'm not complaining, i just tell you that your idea won't work. I didn't tell you you can't try it. my point wasn't to show that my team won't try this.
And i didn't attack you. In fact, we have tried a lot of things, including different ways of splitting.
I think you're "defending" something you think you and Cheese were the first to come up with just for the sake of being able to think of yourself as a pioneer (lol). You aren't, and your strategy will never have as many advantages as a normal split, for crying out loud. prove me wrong if you don't like it.
a) not "my" team, Cheese's team or whoever tries it
"your team" was meant to be generic

btw this reminds me of old times lol ...

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vov
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Re: Fort Start

Post by vov »

Word wrote:Find some valid counter-arguments. You posted your idea here, i gave you some sort of feedback. if you don't like anyone to comment on it, you shouldn't have posted it in the first place. I'm not complaining, i just tell you that your idea won't work. I didn't tell you you can't try it. my point wasn't to show that my team won't try this.
And i didn't attack you. In fact, we have tried a lot of things, including different ways of splitting.
splitting != grinding
Counter-arguments have been posted all the time. Read them. If there aren't enough for you, find some yourself.
Word wrote:I think you're "defending" something you think you and Cheese were the first to come up with just for the sake of being able to think of yourself as a pioneer (lol).
No, I don't think so (idk what Cheese thinks so I can't speak for him though). I've just said that I did never see it. What makes you think like that? (or if there is no reason, stop trolling please :P )
Word wrote:You aren't, and your strategy will never have as many advantages as a normal split, for crying out loud.
You can stop crying now.
Wow, everyone sees you can complain with success! WD! You have just earned another trophy for this.

Word
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Re: Fort Start

Post by Word »

OK, you won. Let me know when you have read my post. I wasn't trolling you.


I'll ignore you as long as you don't make some frigging sense.

maybe you should behave less disrespectfully, then you'd have more success in convincing people.
Last edited by Word on Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:42 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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vov
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Re: Fort Start

Post by vov »

No, You won. WD :D

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Tank Program
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Re: Fort Start

Post by Tank Program »

*cough*
Image

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AI-team
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Re: Fort Start

Post by AI-team »

/me hands tank a blanket
  
 
"95% of people believe in every quote you post on the internet" ~ Abraham Lincoln
 
 

Goodygumdrops
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Re: Fort Start

Post by Goodygumdrops »

vov wrote:
Goodygumdrops wrote: enemies will have a lot more speed since you turned so much at the beginning and your grind took longer to start

your left side is likely going to be vulnerable to early-round torps since your team is 1) grinding off to the right and 2) probably not going fast enough to block the speed your enemies will have
Why not try this then, there we got a sweep, too, blocking the enemy, making torps harder and the occasional center attack between 1+2 gets blocked...
Best would be, then, to mix this strategy up with the "normal" one to completely surprise the other team. They will most likely do something stupid as for example trying to get through the blocked gap at the right side or a "center-attack" on the grinds ending in a corner.
strategy.jpg
you still didn't stop torps...if we are assuming 6 v 6, what you have is the entire enemy grind of 3-4 players coming at you (4-5 if they're expecting you to do this start) and two walls between them and your base...maybe 1 wall, as it looks like you have your sweeper grinding the defender

your other 4 players are off to the right and out of the action...looks like a pretty weak set up

if the sweeper in fact isn't grinding the defender in that diagram, he won't be fast enough to stop people from getting by him on the left, and good teams will be able to go around him and then torp

edit number 67: just looked at your diagram again, and it probably doesn't matter too much whether the sweeper is grinding the def or not, 3 players grinding together straight at your base are going right around that sweep and torping you
The once and future "I told you so."

Goodygumdrops
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Re: Fort Start

Post by Goodygumdrops »

more thoughts:

I'm really glad for the OP because for a while I've been thinking about ways to mix up the fortress starting grind. I just don't think this one is particularly good.

Durka had one that we did with TR (maybe later TX a bit, someone remind me?) that was intended to foil Woned's center attack. It was pretty funky, but didn't work out because it gave up too much space at the start and forced us to play from behind the whole round. Also, I"m still not convinced that it even stopped center attacks. I don't know if there are any threads on the official forum about it. I know there was a diagram on the now defunct TR boards, but maybe Durka still has his crappy drawing that he can post for us?

I was talking to Hoax about a year or so ago about coming up with code-named "plays" that we'd have which were basically different starting grinds. With a whole team on vent and everyone having memorized 3 or 4 of these "plays," a team captain could call out at the start of each round which one to do. Would be a really good way to keep opponents off-balance. I'm pretty sure ww's ctf team has/had something like this, and I would be surprised if other fort/ctf teams hadn't at least considered it too.
The once and future "I told you so."

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vov
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Re: Fort Start

Post by vov »

Goodygumdrops wrote:if the sweeper in fact isn't grinding the defender in that diagram, he won't be fast enough to stop people from getting by him on the left, and good teams will be able to go around him and then torp
edit number 67: just looked at your diagram again, and it probably doesn't matter too much whether the sweeper is grinding the def or not, 3 players grinding together straight at your base are going right around that sweep and torping you
yea, speed seems to be the main problem of this... maybe someone has another idea?
Goodygumdrops wrote: Durka had one that we did with TR (maybe later TX a bit, someone remind me?) that was intended to foil Woned's center attack.
like something that ends up in a mean corner or dead end outside the zone? :)
Goodygumdrops wrote: I was talking to Hoax about a year or so ago about coming up with code-named "plays" that we'd have which were basically different starting grinds. With a whole team on vent and everyone having memorized 3 or 4 of these "plays," a team captain could call out at the start of each round which one to do. Would be a really good way to keep opponents off-balance. I'm pretty sure ww's ctf team has/had something like this, and I would be surprised if other fort/ctf teams hadn't at least considered it too.
idk if they did or did yet, but in my opinion it would make tournaments (and 'normal' games, too) even more fun to watch and play... just gotta have to find something that works to make people use it and get thinking about it...

Goodygumdrops
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Re: Fort Start

Post by Goodygumdrops »

vov wrote: idk if they did or did yet, but in my opinion it would make tournaments (and 'normal' games, too) even more fun to watch and play... just gotta have to find something that works to make people use it and get thinking about it...

maybe if compguygene is lurking around here somewhere he can enlighten us about his ww days?
The once and future "I told you so."

Cheese
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Re: Fort Start

Post by Cheese »

I only started this thread cause I died so many times at the start, but now since I am better at fort, I can see the advantages of a center grind. I am not on a team and am really busy so I probably will not be on one. I am mostly playing in CTF and High Rubber Shooting now.

PEACE,
Cheese :D

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