I dont understand...

Anything about how you get those awesome core-dumps, or why you don't get them...
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Z-Man
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Re: I dont understand...

Post by Z-Man »

That just says there are way too many default sumo/fortress servers.

Rubber classification assuming default CYCLE_RUBBER_TIME: calculate CYCLE_RUBBER/(CYCLE_SPEED*CYCLE_DELAY). That is the number of times you can hump a wall in quick succession without suiciding. If it's < 1, you're in a low rubber server. Between 1 and, say, about 2, medium rubber. Between 2 and 10, high rubber. Any higher than that and it just gets insane. Simple. For YSM, it's 12/(25*.05)=9.6. So there, high rubber.

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sinewav
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Re: I dont understand...

Post by sinewav »

Too bad we can't get the master list to fetch that info and display it. If I was a brian I would make something that could.

owned
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Re: I dont understand...

Post by owned »

It's just semantics really. Does it matter what someone calls high or low rubber?

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Phytotron
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Re: I dont understand...

Post by Phytotron »

Semantics deals with the meaning of words, language, and communication. I suppose if you don't believe meanings matter, that anyone can define anything however they want, have their own language, their own set of facts, subscribe to this solipsistic, postmodernist, relativist culture wherein nothing really matters except for one's own self-defined "truth," then no, it doesn't matter.


Paladin makes one good point, that other rubber settings come into play. I'll use the example of Yellow Submarine versus Mud Puddle. Their basic CYCLE_RUBBER values are 12 and [5 or 6]*, respectively. However, their _RUBBER_TIMEBASED values are 0 and 1.4, respectively. That 1.4 means that the faster you go, the more slowly your rubber depletes (totally backwards from what most of us are traditionally used to). This results in Mud Puddle feeling and playing like there's a lot more rubber there than in Yellow Submarine.


* Can't recall off-hand, and it's apparently down at the moment.

sinewav wrote:If I was a brian I would make something that could.
::chuckles::
Last edited by Phytotron on Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

owned
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Re: I dont understand...

Post by owned »

Phytotron wrote:Semantics deals with the meaning of words, language, and communication. I suppose if you don't believe meanings matter, that anyone can define anything however they want, have their own language, their own set of facts, subscribe to this solipsistic, postmodernist, relativist culture wherein nothing really matters except for one's own self-defined "truth," then no, it doesn't matter.
Having a rational argument requires actually taking people's quotes in context and not bringing them to their far extremes. I suppose if you take any argument, be it well-reasoned or badly so, you can make it seem incredibly ridiculous just by using a slippery slope.

My point as I'm sure you know was that the distinction between high and low rubber does not matter.

Probably the main reason for that is that it's impossible to make such a distinction. If you define it by server number into thirds, then for regular modes, anything from approximately 7-18 is mid-rubber while anything higher or lower is high rubber or low rubber respectively. For Zone Mode it would be <5, 5, 5<. If you define it with respect to the default settings, then practically every server is high rubber. Also, if you define it with respect to number of players, the average would probably be somewhere from 5-15. So here are three different systems, all valid, that yield three different results. This proves that High and Low Rubber can't really be separated into definitive groups. (of course, nearly everyone would agree that high numbers of rubber like 30 is high rubber and low numbers like <2 is low rubber, but I'm specifically talking about the middle ground here)

Another reason the distinction does not matter is that using high and low rubber as separation criteria is simply not a good technique. For example, a server with a relatively low rubber like Shrunkland (is it still 4?) probably shares more in common with higher rubber LMS counterparts than it does with Fortress or Sumo, two game types that have a very similar rubber with Shrunkland. There are even game types where rubber serves so little use (like racing and dogfight) that even trying to classify it with its rubber number is disingenuous to the types of servers they are. As Paladin also pointed out (and you responded to) changing other settings can practically mimic changing the rubber setting. An example is that if you up the speed in a server, it's just like shrinking the map and lowering rubber.

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Phytotron
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Re: I dont understand...

Post by Phytotron »

owned wrote:
Phytotron wrote:Semantics deals with the meaning of words, language, and communication. I suppose if you don't believe meanings matter, that anyone can define anything however they want, have their own language, their own set of facts, subscribe to this solipsistic, postmodernist, relativist culture wherein nothing really matters except for one's own self-defined "truth," then no, it doesn't matter.
Having a rational argument requires actually taking people's quotes in context and not bringing them to their far extremes. I suppose if you take any argument, be it well-reasoned or badly so, you can make it seem incredibly ridiculous just by using a slippery slope.
Yeah, I'm sick and grumpy and just used your comment as an excuse to make a general gripe I have with a too-common and growing current in our culture. Although, sometimes I do that even when healthy and in a good mood, so....
Another reason the distinction does not matter is that using high and low rubber as separation criteria is simply not a good technique.
Well, we're not really trying to categorise all servers into low or high rubber, just note a general description for one of the settings.
For example, a server with a relatively low rubber like Shrunkland (is it still 4?) probably shares more in common with higher rubber LMS counterparts than it does with Fortress or Sumo, two game types that have a very similar rubber with Shrunkland. ... As Paladin also pointed out (and you responded to) changing other settings can practically mimic changing the rubber setting. An example is that if you up the speed in a server, it's just like shrinking the map and lowering rubber.
Can we all stop using "LMS" for "FFA"-type servers that aren't actually "last man standing?"

Nope, no longer 4, in part because of what you noted at the end—at the slower speeds, that's like higher rubber in terms of how long one can sit on a wall. I've changed up Shrunkland's rubber settings to ones to where I believe would have evolved naturally had I continued playing and administering that server over my 3-year hiatus. (More on all this when I finally get around to finishing and posting my "History of Shrunkland" thang.) And, actually, I think the resulting gameplay (if one doesn't get hung up on the exactitude of settings) is more reminiscent of the original Shrunkland, as compared to the tedious interim one that was up while I was away. Yadda yadda. Basic rubber is now 1, but _TIMEBASED is also 1 and _RUBBER_TIME is 0.3 or something nearly-immediate. Trying to minimise rubber as a gameplay feature and get that Tetris-like effect I've mentioned before. Still too easy to beat grinds, though; working on that....

Anyway, I still disagree that understanding what is high or low doesn't matter. That specific value may differ from one server to another depending on other settings, but there's still the difference, and it matters.

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sinewav
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Re: I dont understand...

Post by sinewav »

owned wrote:[T]he main reason for that is that it's impossible to make such a distinction.
Z-Man wrote:...calculate CYCLE_RUBBER/(CYCLE_SPEED*CYCLE_DELAY).
I think that's about as good a definition as you can get. Keep the intention of rubber in mind, not the common use/abuse.

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Re: I dont understand...

Post by Olive »

genericuser wrote: I dont understand how to seal a trap box - every time i hit the wall i just came out of and grind, the other person just grinds their way out of it too.
The best traps are those which you beat with quick fingerwork and smart thinking, not the ones u spend rubber at.

E.G.

Code: Select all

 __________
|         |
|     ____|
|    |________
|      ________   <--- make the tunnel width small + don't leave edges 
|    |
|    |
they can grind edges to escape.
Olive a.k.a ZeMu, MoonFlower & chicken.

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