no sealing?

Anything about how you get those awesome core-dumps, or why you don't get them...
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Jonathan
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Post by Jonathan »

There's no multi-grinding with proper settings. Then it's all about getting deeper than your opponent on the first try.
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root down
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Post by root down »

2020 wrote:isn't this call for keeping it open
an emergent thing
from players who have got bored with sealing
it seems more to me like players are making up rules so the game is more friendly to them. if i break their "rules", i'm not playing their version of the game, so i'm not really better than them, right? maybe they're bored with sealing because getting put in a box, dying, and watching the real players play the real game isn't as fun as playing. instead of developing a skillset to compete on a higher level, they just change the rules of the game.

the problem arises when people come into a server where that shit doesn't fly (i always considered the goshdarn/ish/breakfast/swampland servers to be the real servers, maybe that's not the case anymore) and try to impose their "rules" on others who want to play the game as it was intended, not how someone else tells them to.
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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

root down wrote:(i always considered the goshdarn/ish/breakfast/swampland servers to be the real servers, maybe that's not the case anymore)
I still agree with the sentiment, and in fact, fortress and sumo preserve the style of gameplay fine. They're just not last man standing games, there's more to it than just kill everyone. Try them, seriously. z-man struck oil when he setup the first fortress server, and the old breakfast crowd mostly migrated to fortress, with the ones that don't like team play going to sumo (which was created to train for fortress and has since grown into its own style). You'll find the old anything goes crowd still kicking around there.
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Z-Man
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Post by Z-Man »

I also hold that gameplay should be free, and that whatever is physically allowed by the game rules is legal.

So, there is a technical solution to this problem, and I'm working on it. What is obviously lacking is a way to enforce "open" play. The very simple approach I'm after now makes CYCLE_RUBBER_MINDISTANCE context sensitive. If there is a gap to squeeze through (easily detectable by side sensors), the minimal distance can be made smaller to make that possible. Or larger to make it impossible. It'll be then up to the server admin to decide whether open play should be enforced or even sloppy grinds should seal (ok, cycle_width already does that, but people have complained that they're not protected by rubber from a cycle_width death) or everything should be as it is now.

Then, whenever someone complains about you sealing, you can yell at them and tell them to stop whining and to f*cking go to a server that enforces open play, and if there is none, make one. With greetings from me :)

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DrJoeTr0n
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Post by DrJoeTr0n »

z-man wrote: You can yell at them and tell them to stop whining and to f*cking go to a server that enforces open play, and if there is none, make one.
Yeah, you would think that works, however seeing as everytime i say anything similar to this, they don't really give a shit. So I just ban them because obviously they don't and won't ever get it and then I have to deal with their friends coming in and saying "hai can u ban (PWN)sn!pergoku plz? he is mai frend and didnt do nothin" in which I then ban them after saying "No. Stop it. Go away." and then deal with "OMG U MODS R FACISTS"
anyone people who say "SRY 4 CLOSIN" or something similar to it gets kicked, and players who say "Omg closer nub" or anything relating to it get banned. So far the system works. <8)> Shrunkland should be A OK

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Post by cetialpha »

Hey root down. :)

"Open" and "closed" are strategies. Plain and simple. I agree completely with Dr. Joe Tron that people who whine and moan about people closing should be dealt with. There's no need. However, I've begun to notice that some "closed" players are just as bad. Saying things like, "spoiled open players" and the like. The fact is I play open, but I don't bitch and complain when people play closed. But I do expect the same courtesy from closed players.

However, for those who think that people just made up "open" rules should watch the movie TRON. I play "open" because it's the closest type of gameplay as the movie. There was no rubber in the movie, which means no closing! The challenge was to get your enemy into a maze (i.e. quote from movie: "Bring him into the maze!") You touch the wall you die - no rubber. However, online playing is difficult with absolutely no rubber settings because of lag (though there are ping niceness settings). Though I don't get what someone said above about highrubber players coming into Shrunkland and complaining about people sealing? Since when did highrubber players start playing open? :o

"Open" players didn't create these rules to make the game easier. I can't speak for anyone else, but I happen to like a challenge. If I ever thought for a second that playing open was easy I would stop. I win against "closed" players and I lose against "closed" players. I win against "open" players and I lose against "open" players. Each is a strategy and whether I win or lose has to do with the ability of my opponent. But it has NOTHING to do with whether they are playing open or closed. The thing is I don't bitch about it. Though, I have been somewhat guilty of apologizing for closing, but I'll stop that immediately. I generally only apologize to people I know anyway, which is stupid because they would know I didn't do it intentionally :roll: hehe. I'm overly polite I guess. But I can totally see where that can cause confusion and make some people think that some are trying to force "open" gameplay on others. I, of course, never meant it in that way.

In regards to a "forced open server", that would be great. In fact, I'll make that suggestion for one of the open |FA| servers. Though that wouldn't stop me from playing open in other servers. I don't think open and closed players should segregate themselves from each other. Each is a strategy, though "open" players should beware that the advantage is generally with people who play "closed". I say that because I think that is why some people may complain about closing. Anyone who plays "open" should accept that many, if not most, people play "closed". There's no point in whining and complaining about it. Just play open and if you win you win, if you lose say "wd" and get on with the next round. And that goes for the "closed" whiners too!

There are annoying things that both "open" and "closed" people do. Some "open" players just maze around aimlessly and don't play to win. The point of playing open is to make the maze as difficult as possible for the other player. Most open players do this and is why I was attracted to that strategy in the first place. Zig, Mo, Anumeric, locutus and gss come to mind. They are really good open players and can compete easily against any "closed" player. They are great motivators for improving my skills. (I still have lots of work ahead of me hehe.) The beauty is making it out alive with enough speed to circle around the other player and make a maze for them. On the other hand, some "closed" players just speed around and make giant "traps". BORING! It's boring in any server, but it's especially boring on servers with limited cycle walls that retract. I'm all for sumo-style fighting, so if you put me in a box, come in and get me! :) I'll be more than happy to fight inside the box. Just don't circle around the box like a brainless shark, cus I'll just wait it out - which isn't camping.

Some players complain about the rules on certain servers...I'm not going to name names. But these complainers should realize the rules are there for a reason - generally to make the server more fun. I don't know about anyone else, but servers that reward whining and complaining don't get my attention. I like to play and have fun doing it. Armagetron is addicting not just because it's a fun game, but because it's online and you get to talk and get to know other players from around the globe.

That said, Dr. Joe Tron you are a fine administrator. You've many of my late nights writing papers more fun while I procrastinate. I still think you should keep the brake setting as a super boost on Shrunkland. :lol: And the Lobster Tub is awesome. I don't know why more people don't go there. :?

So the moral of my story is: I don't want to hear dumbass comments about playing open or closed. It's lame. 8) :o
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root down
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Post by root down »

i never thought of the true-to-the-movie aspect of "open", but now that you mention it i'm intrigued. that said, until it is it's own gametype, anyone who plays "open" is getting closed. but i respect your argument.
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Post by Lucifer »

Man. Have we completely overanalyzed a 5-minute sequence from that movie yet, or do we still have more to do?
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Post by Tank Program »

I would argue that there is closing in the movie, due to the fact that the game was played on a grid where aparently the cycle snaps in to turn on the nearest block. If you turn on the closest snap to the wall, then you effectively seal the other person off.
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Post by DrJoeTr0n »

Lucifer wrote:Man. Have we completely overanalyzed a 5-minute sequence from that movie yet, or do we still have more to do?
There aren't little Jeff Bridges' in the bike models, so not nearly enough.

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root down
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Post by root down »

also, of those players you mentioned, i know zig, loc, anum and gss played "closed" before "open" existed, and i can attest that at the very least zig, loc and anum were among the best players out there. (didn't play with gss alot)
i don't think one can aruge that playing "open" requires a broader set of skills than playing "closed", ie. "closed" players NEED to know how to gring as tight as possible, open players don't. if i were to start the game new and play "open", why would i learn to grind in the first place? the skillset required for playing "closed" translates to "open", not the other way around. ("good open" players may be more skillful at mazing than "skilled closed" players, simply by virtue of the fact that "skilled closed" players don't need to make mazes, instead they force others to do so.) i would therefore draw the conclusion that "closed" playing requires more skill and is therefore the superior gametype. maybe that's fallacious, whatever. until open is an official gametype, "open" players can eat wall.
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Post by Lackadaisical »

root down wrote:also, of those players you mentioned, i know zig, loc, anum and gss played "closed" before "open" existed, and i can attest that at the very least zig, loc and anum were among the best players out there. (didn't play with gss alot)
In the haydays of Armagoshdarn, with people like War Monkey, Algerion, Amishvag, subby, Marrow, n54, etc. (i think loc and anum were there too back then). There was a period (i think it was dubbed Algerions Bootcamp) when pretty much 90% of the best players were more often just trying to get better without actually trying to kill. There was one scenario where two people would just go round and round against the grid where the challenge was to stay alive as long as possible as the guy between two walls. Another thing was when people made mazes where the challenge was to get in and out just trying to stay alive, after which another person tried to do it. I haven't actually played on shrunk for a while, so i'm not sure what it exactly looks like, but as far as i can see from this thread it's pretty similar to what was going on at armagoshdarn that period. Although instead of getting mad, they were just disappointed when i killed them. ("aww, why'd you have to do that lack? :(") Which might have been even worse ;)


I think it's a pretty natural progression for people who get bored of a certain aspect of the game(in this case; grinding/boxing/trapping) to try and explore other aspects of the game. Not too long ago I played a couple of sumo matches with madmax, and after a while we just stopped playing hardcore sumo in favor of just seeing how many times we could survive driving through a maze.

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Post by cetialpha »

There aren't little Jeff Bridges' in the bike models, so not nearly enough.
Haha! :lol: Touché

However, as I said in my post, I said it was the closest type of gameplay to the movie - not exactly. Armagetron is obviously not meant to be exactly like the movie as there are many servers for many different types of gameplay.

And root down, feel free to close on me. :) I won't complain.

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Post by root down »

Lackadaisical wrote:things
i remember 'laps', and multi mazes and stuff, and that was great. i don't think these things is analogous to playing "open" though. (maybe you didn't mean to convey that argument either, but it seemed like it)

obviously there's difference between playing to win and playing to build certain skills. doing laps helped you learn how to survive corner grinds, and concentrating on mazes helps you to maze. (dur)

the difference is, n54 was godly and could kick my ass when he wanted to. players who play open (usually) can't grind worth shit, so when it comes down to it they (usually) can't hang. it's great if you want to play and concentrate on getting better at an aspect of the real game, but if you choose to play by your own rules of no sealing, and don't learn to beat others' grinds, hard cheese when people put you in a box. my 2c anyways.
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Post by Lucifer »

Heh. If you want to see real whining, root, go to a high rubber infinite brake server. If you don't get a kick poll go up against you in 10 minutes, I'll be surprised.
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