Defeating the wall grinders

[Lucifer]

Ok, just played some rounds with root down and anumeric where I worked this out.

You're grinding on the wall, and one of these super wall grinding guys gets between your wall and the wall, and you know from experience that you'll probably crash if you try to get closer. You can't beat the grind (yet), but you still have to beat the player, 'cause here he comes.

Timing is it. You have to wait until he's committed to the cutoff that he's planning for you, then you turn around (double-binding shouldn't be necessary for this move, but I use it), then hang a turn towards the center, so you essentially to R-R-L, or L-L-R, depending on which way you're going along the wall.

Having had a shot at War Monkey with this, yet, but I got root down twice before he figured out a counter, and I got anumeric once, and it is easily countered, but still worth doing because it leaves you in an excellent position to really harass the grinder.

[root down]

yes that was a minor annoyance

[nicolas.b]

some people can get addicted to their ability to grind. some good players i have in my mind, altho i mention nobody.

if you discover they are having an off-day with their grinds due to whatever reasons, you can sometimes badly pawn them, since they can be determined to just KEEP ON grinding.

[root down]

what like cao? he never has an off day

[nicolas.b]

nope, i rarely have been able to outgrind cao or kesh, but then i doubt i have the hardware setup their mummies and daddies bought them, either.

i don't consider it a level playing field so don't lose any sleep over it...

[Lackadaisical]

isn't it dangerous to slow down by turning and lose any mean of acceleration when you are being attacked by a faster player?

[Lucifer]

isn't it dangerous to slow down by turning and lose any mean of acceleration when you are being attacked by a faster player?

If you're scared, stay home.

Seriously, you're already in a bad situation. You're grinding the wall and someone's beating your grind and coming up on you, picking up speed from *your* wall as he comes. The common practice of the attacker in this case is to hand a U-turn when he comes up ahead of you and you drive into his U.

I will admit that in actual practice I'm pulling myself back against my trail before cutting out, but that increases the risk of hitting the other guy's wall, so it depends on time. You can't pull this maneuver before he's committed to his U-turn, because then he'll do something else. You're trying to pull him into his U-turn so he'll hit *your* wall. Dangerous it may be, but take the risk and you might get a point. If not, well, next round. There's always a next round.

[Yaza Yamagotchi]

It is a good tactic and it is definitely better than going straight and waiting for them to pass you...

[ishAdmin]

Be unpredictable. And if you can't be unpredictable, GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE!

[akira]

I never grind walls ... So other players cant get speed of mine. If they want to accelerate at mine trail ill turn to wall forcing them to beat that grind. Then its just a game of making a good corner . You can trap ppl to the rim that way if you possess the middle already.

[newbie]

Timing is it.

Yes, as you said, timing is very important, bu not only against a wall grinder or 'speed demon'.

Something for new players.....

I belive, that the core, key skills in any situation, against any player are:
1. ability to USE glance (not only right and left, but back too)
1.1. timing
1.2. fake, feint (sport feint? somethink like yours RRL)
2. ability to use lag
3. and speed (always its good to be just a little bit faster than your opponent, because you have more opportunities to do a good fake and catch someone's bike)

Those are universal skills. To be good, you have to handle(to master) all of them.

Rest is technical stuff like closing maneuvers, driving in a good direction etc. Also camera settings are important too.

And there are also a few things, that work in specific situations. They come with time, when you'll be not a newbie.

And something about 'speed demons' and simple big U closing with huge speed. That works only when: a) you dont use glance; b) you've made stupid mistake; c) you are not so good as he is.

When you have all skills above, its impossible to be killed by speed demon.

I'am not sure.... wall grinder is someone who grind between rim wall and your wall or someone who fight only on a rim, who drive straight to the rim?

[Lucifer]

This thread is pretty old, actually, and the subject of the thread doesn't happen very much anymore. Since 0.2.7.1, the wall grinders I wrote about pretty much don't exist anymore (although it still happens occasionally, a specific tactic to deal with it isn't necessary anymore, the situation usually offers either an escape or an attack these days).

Anyway, what I came up with a long time ago was centered on Root Down and then used on other players quite effectively. Root Down's move was when you're both going parallel with a couple of grid squares between you, he'd go back and inside, luring you to hurry up and seal him in. Then he'd turn right back around and grind between your wall and his, picking up a great deal of speed. He would also tend to enter such an impossible tunnel and follow it to its conclusion, which would be you, and then surround you with walls. So I came up with this tactic to counter it, which assumes your cycle is moving slower than his. That was the beauty of it, that you're in the less advantageous position, and you exploit his move, kind of a little judo move.

Like I say, it doesn't come up very often anymore because of changes from 0.2.7.0 to 0.2.7.1 that make it very difficult if not impossible to reliably take someone's tunnel the way Root Down used to.

These days, I find that the old zone defense is still the most reliable approach. If you've ever played a zone defense in basketball you know how to play the zones in armagetron. I came up with the zone approach quite awhile ago and have never found reason to deviate from it. I do periodically go man-to-man, but I still find the zone yields more points. Of course, you have to be able to exploit lag to properly play the zone, but that's not too terribly difficult. You just have to develop a thick skin whenever 3/4 or more of your kills result in lag being blamed rather than you being credited by the victim with the kill. Hell, just today I made a pretty cool move that had 3 spectators all comment "lag". Sometimes there's no point in trying to argue. (Maybe it was yesterday? I dont' remember now)

Oh yeah, you're right, feinting is very effective. Since there's no real offense (the point is to convince the other guy to hit your wall), a good feint will include throwing up the wall that the other guy will hit when he tries to avoid what looks like a real attack. The trick there is that your feint needs to look like an attack, just turning towards him doesn't work. You can try to invoke his reflexes, but I find it's easier to just make the feint a creditable attack. If the other player doesn't believe it could be an attack, he'll ignore it (if he's good, if he's not then there's no point feinting, just make the dumb attack, you'll get him).

Nemo's got some kung fu you might want to watch, though. Makes it hard to fence when you die if you just touch his wall.

Something else that came up earlier that I thought would be worth mentioning, even offtopic. When should you vote-kick someone for having a high ping? I've got an answer. If he can play his ping, then you shouldn't kick him. If he can't, he'll leave on his own. So when should you vote-kick someone for it? Never.

[microbus]

one strategy, as mentioned up there somewhere, is be unpredictable.
Play a couple of rounds doing one thing, then do something else totally
different. Grind the wall for a round or two, then go for the centre,
then go all over... confuse them
Vote-kick for ping... maybe as it approaches 2000..

[kickyoubliminass]

how do u break on amergetron

[Lucifer]

Brakes are for sissies. Real men and women don't use brakes.

(Seriously, a lot of servers have brakes disabled, you're better off learning to play without brakes)