Capture the Flag tactics :)

Team Strategies go here, if you want to share that is...
User avatar
Lucifer
Project Developer & Local Moonshiner
Posts: 8610
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:32 pm
Location: Republic of Texas
Contact:

Capture the Flag tactics :)

Post by Lucifer »

ok, here goes. Most of this is probably already known by everybody.

Assume 4 v 4. :)

Seems like the team layout should be 2 offensive players and 2 defensive players. One guy watches the area where your flag sits (whether or not there's a flag there!) and the other guy hangs out in the base and continuously respawns your offensive team and protects your base from the other team blocking it.

Ok, it's a big deal that the guy protecting the flag stay there even when the flag is taken. Why? Simple, if the other team succeeds and runs it down, the flag will respawn there instantly. If nobody's there to defend it, and nobody notices it needs defending, the other team gets a free shot at picking it up again. Before you know it, the other team's run up their score quite drastically. So if you happen to notice that you don't have a goalie, take it, whether or not there's a flag there. I was able to turn the tide in a couple of rounds by doing exactly that. Sure, you lose 3 points by letting the other team get one flag back to their base, but that's better than giving up 30 points, eh?

So then you have a guy that sits in the base and keeps respawning your offense. This should be pretty obvious, but there's a catch. See, the guy protecting the flag needs to make it very clear that he'll kill himself when he's the only one left and the other team snags the flag. And he won't go and respawn his team, he won't try to save the flag. If he kills himself, he denies the other team the run. They can try, but chances are they won't get the flag back once, and then everybody respawns, right? Right. (Did this earlier and it turned a shitty situation into a fighting chance to win. We ultimately blew it, but we started the next round down by 1 point. No telling what kind of damage would've been done if I'd gone for the respawn) IF the other team knows that's the situation, and they're smart, they will respawn your team for you when you're down to 1 player. Because if they don't, they don't get any more runs that round. Some day the situation will be like this for everybody, I'm sure, and the respawning defender will be more of a wildcard slot where he can just go help as needed. :)

For now it seems to me like the guy protecting the flag should *never* go respawn his team. So if it's 3v3, you run 2 offensive players and 1 defensive player, and that defensive player only protects the flag, he never goes to respawn his team.

I think a good attitude to adopt is "I will respawn my team by returning victoriously to my base with the other team's flag".

Personally, I had more luck defending the flag by laying out a good-sized rectangle. Any time I tried a different layout, like an L, or whatever, I had a hard time maintining it. This was mostly because the lag bombs on that server are pretty nasty and it's pretty slidey. On a better connection, well, let's just leave it at that.

I found the easiest way to return the other team's flag to my base was by respawning their dead teammates right after taking their flag. The confusion that accompanies a fresh respawn is exploitable and usually results in a corridor relatively free of enemies. The only problem there is that corridor leads directly to your flag, where there's usually an enemy trying to get in. Still, you can at least try to distract him by waving his flag at him and heading for your base and potentially giving your defender a little breather, and he'll appreciate that.

Don't be afraid to respawn the other team! :) For one thing, if they have only 1 player and he does something stupid and dies (which you can rely on), you can't run their flag any more. If you're way behind that means you now have less rounds to close the point gap and get ahead. If you're way ahead, then you might want to switch to a kill strategy instead to try to end the match as quickly as you can. But like in all things, don't be afraid to dump the other team, they're still worth points that way, even if they're not worth as much as running the flag.

Ok, etiquette. :) If you accidentally kill a teammate, go respawn hiim immediately. Unless doing so would be a strategic disaster, anyway. Most of the time going for the respawn seems to be relatively harmless, and most teamkills seem to happen near the base and the flag anyway, so just do it. If you're near the base and you don't have someone camping in it already, unless you're absolutely sure your whole team is alive, hop over and find out. The team that can keep the most players on the grid for the longest period of time has an advantage. It's not obvious, either.

If you intentionally kill a teammate, I guess it doesn't matter if it's nice to go respawn him or not.

And don't whine about wanting a respawn. I guess that's pretty well covered in another thread, but seriously, the best way for your team to respawn you is by bringing in the other team's flag, and the best way for them to do that is by not being contantly annoyed with "res plz lolz omg haxx0r" spam. Actually, after the suicide tactic sinks in a bit, you can probably get the other team to respawn you by just saying "suicide", heh heh.

What do you do when both flags are occupied? Personally I found camping in my base the right thing to do. For one thing it means I'm keeping my team spawned so they can attack the other team's flag bearer. If I get killed, the other team *has* to respawn me when they go to return their flag (along with any of my dead teammates). And the other team likely didn't leave a person defending their flag zone, so I'll respawn more or less in the clear and have an opportunity to go get their flag before they can get back to defend it.

The main thing, I think, is that offensive players need to know that if they return their own flag to base, it will be defended. I don't think it can be stressed enough that you should continue defending the flag's spawn point even if there's no flag in it!
Image

Be the devil's own, Lucifer's my name.
- Iron Maiden

User avatar
the pig
Average Program
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:58 pm

Post by the pig »

Wow, great post Lucifer. Now we just have to get everyone to come here and read it.

I've had a bunch of people ask for the "drop flag" ability, so I finally put it in. I'd like to see the strategy post that explains when I should use it :B)

Instachat "/drop" while carrying the flag to drop it.
groundpigs don't fly

Skip <3
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:38 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Positions

Post by Skip <3 »

Here's my initial thought for CTF and my first post :) ..

1. Flag side innermost player grinds forward, reverses inward and defends the flag as well as blocking from a center and opposite side attack.

2. Respawner side outermost player reverses directly back to the respawning zone and covers it.

3. The center player brake reverses inward and will maintain a line through the center of the grid.

4. The outermost flag side player splits and attacks the enemy's flag.

5. After flag capture the attacker grind's the middle man's line while the middle man switches to the attackers position and the respawner switches to the middle man (who is replaced by the attacker).

6. If there's a 5th person, his position is between the center and respawner. He breaks right and goes to lock out the enemy's zone.

In the event of the (4 man) team's own flag being captured, the defender still holds (or returns to) his position. The middle man holes the attacker in to capture the enemy's flag (the attacker can hole for the middle man too of course). The person with the flag covers the respawner and the other person goes to kill the person holding our flag and return it.. probly by locking out the enemy's zone. In a 5 man+ team, their zone should already be locked out or fkd up good anyway and the extra people still work on the kill+flag return.

Extra players simply support the critical positions/players in their job.
Shuffle Positions wrote:1. Middleman 2. Defense 3. Respawner 4. Offense
or
1. Middleman 2. Defense 3. Enemy Lockout 4. Offense 5. Respawner
I think that's right..

Sticky
On Lightcycle Grid
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:59 pm

Post by Sticky »

yes a few of your points that I would most like to emphasize are:

1. The goalie as the last player has no obligation to respawn you. So many players believe that the goalie as the last remaining player should abandon the flag and respawn them. They will winge that all you are going to do is die and hand over a win and refuse to realize that actually winning a round is hardly worth the points when compared to kills and captures. This leads to the most annoying gloat of “told you so” if you do fail to defend the flag.

2. Suicide is always an option. In the same way as the previous point killing yourself, ending the round and preventing a capture is always preferable. This is most notable in attack, if you are the last person and attacker and they have your flag give up and die, either returning for a respawn or continuing the attack are neither a good option.

3. Could the better players in the game stop feeling they have a right to be respawned or not to respawn others. I generally find that the ones who complain most about either respawning people or(once dead) being respawned are the better players. Generally as you said respawn is always a good option but the ones who complain most in situation 1 are the better players that think they can solve it all once alive again.

On a side note any CTF server with bots needs to be shot…SOON.

User avatar
EagleEye
Average Program
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 3:27 am
Location: Philadelphia

Post by EagleEye »

1. The goalie as the last player has no obligation to respawn you. So many players believe that the goalie as the last remaining player should abandon the flag and respawn them. They will winge that all you are going to do is die and hand over a win and refuse to realize that actually winning a round is hardly worth the points when compared to kills and captures. This leads to the most annoying gloat of “told you so” if you do fail to defend the flag.
True. But depending on other players position, breaking Defence to respawn could be the best option. If the other team is down at the other end, a defender could realistically spawn his teammates and make it back in time to defend the flag before the other team gets there.
Suicide is always an option.
Really, i only think suicide is the best option when you are in a bad position. If you have a solid defence around your flag or a realistic shot at the other teams flag then i believe suicide is probably not the best thing.
Could the better players in the game stop feeling they have a right to be respawned or not to respawn others. I generally find that the ones who complain most about either respawning people or(once dead) being respawned are the better players.
Really? I tend to find the that the players that say "OMFG Respawn idoit!" are the players that are not good; mostly those new to the game, or game mode. Most of the better players i notice are silent much of the game. Plus logic dictates that the better players are dead less often then the worse players. So naturally, they would have less opertunity to annoy other teammates to respawn.

I say that roles should be assigned like this
1 respawner by own teams zone
1 defender of the flag
1 primary attacker of flag
1 secondary of the flag, who stays at a distance at the start, then either steps up to attack the flag when the first one dies, or guards the primary attacker back to the zone and positions himself to easily take the flag once it reappears

However what happens most is three players go for the flag, box themselves in and end up killing eachother leaving the last one to fend for himself while 1 or 2 of them shout to respawn.
Image

User avatar
^}LC}<SolJah*KF
On Lightcycle Grid
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:55 pm
Location: Nebraska
Contact:

Post by ^}LC}<SolJah*KF »

Still if a respawner is being stubborn and isn't respawning, but instead going after the flag, it makes sense to yell at him. (Although I would keep it down).

But that is why they made the reminder (Respawn (1..2..etc..) of your players).

Still, it would be good to have a way to, politely, tell the remaining player to spawn. I use INSTANT CHAT. It is 0xff0000 (RED): Please SPAWN your teammates.
| / \ |
Why i did thatt? i do not know..

Skip <3
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:38 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Take them down.

Post by Skip <3 »

The whole concept of people yelling for a respawn is just social stupidity. It's only around because it's been done and done over the course of CTF history without any reasoning whatsoever. It's completely idiotic to not have someone covering the position, which is obviously critical when noob teams always end up with only a flag defender left. People crying respawn should be burned for their stupidity in game and told to go man the respawner. I simply start refusing to defend or do much of anything until I get people to stick to positions. :| A match win easily cures all the prior anger from smacktalk and everything is then fine.

Sticky
On Lightcycle Grid
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:59 pm

To eagle

Post by Sticky »

Heh suicide is not always best, but is always an option. The point is don’t be afraid to kill yourself and end the round.

As for the "better players" I mean this in terms of the players that have obviously played rubber a lot and know how to drive and kill, but probably haven’t played much CTF or even fort(that requires similar team play). Yes the really good CTF'ers (such as you) don’t complain so much.

It was a bit of a rant but if I have one more player say told you so when I die as last man I will track them down and insert a respawn zone where the sun don’t shine.

I must say though everyone seems to think unlimited respawn is great here. I have played a few times where I thought we are giving away so many points in kills that I wished we would stop respawning. Afterall respawn your attackers 3 times for one cap and its pointless. People knowing they will comeback instantly can lead to them being reckless with their lives.

User avatar
^}LC}<SolJah*KF
On Lightcycle Grid
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:55 pm
Location: Nebraska
Contact:

Post by ^}LC}<SolJah*KF »

well i think it is alot more worth if you drop your position as flag bearer, and since you are near the res you can respawn and if you are gettings intercepted have one of your teammates turn to guard the flag..i mean they cant go through the wall if its around the flag duh..but i mean you could do that or just not risk it and always have respawner
| / \ |
Why i did thatt? i do not know..

User avatar
Lucifer
Project Developer & Local Moonshiner
Posts: 8610
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:32 pm
Location: Republic of Texas
Contact:

Post by Lucifer »

Well, if you're by yourself and the other team's got a full load, there's no such thing as a realistic shot at their flag without conceding your own.

The risk of respawning in that situation is being underestimated here. Consider the scenario where you leave your flag to respawn your team and the other team's two attackers come over and block you and your newly respawned team from defending your flag. Now the other attacker can run it back a few times (which is why I estimate 3 runs given for a respawn). If you're ahead in points, there's no point taking the risk. If you're pretty close in points, then you've either just given them the lead or you've strengthened their lead.

Now, I never said just kill yourself when you're by yourself. :) I said defend your flag alone until they manage to take it from you, then kill yourself immediately. That way you can rack up points defending your flag because attackers are always worth a few free points.

So, if your team is winning, kill yourself to advance the match one more round and bring your team closer to victory, and avoid letting the other team steal the win from you because your teammates got greedy.

If your team is losing badly, go ahead and respawn them. How much can the 1-3 runs you give up hurt if you're losing badly? In that case, advancing the match another round would be bad because it takes away the opportunities to come back from behind.

If your team is running neck and neck with theirs, kill yourself.

But every time, kill yourself only after they take the flag, and then do it immediately, trying to rack up as many free points as you can before then.

I'd say you guys have a good role assignment, with a minor caveat. The two attackers should have some chemistry or something, and they shoudl pick the approach that suits them best. I've had approaches work where I was better off hanging back and going for kills, and approaches where I was better off going in with my partner. Just depends on the two players, really. The two defensive players are separated enough that they're not required to have any such thing, but under certain circumstances it can make a lot of sense for the goalie to respawn his home guard. The one that comes to mind is if the other team has lost their home guard, not respawned it, and are currently far from threatening the flag, then the flag guard can go respawn your own home guard. Probably happens more than it sounds like. :)
Image

Be the devil's own, Lucifer's my name.
- Iron Maiden

User avatar
EagleEye
Average Program
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 3:27 am
Location: Philadelphia

Post by EagleEye »

Well, id say it depends on your skill level as much as the situation. If your an average to above average player and you are alone against 4 players i'd say suicide is probably the best way to go.

However if you are a good player, perticularly defence i would say go and defend your flag. You really don't have any shot at winning, but odds are that 2 or 3 members of the opposing team will go for you and box their team mates in (multiple attackers never really work out). You could get a few cheep points out of it.

Wow, never knew you could over-analyze a server this much :lol:
Image

User avatar
Lucifer
Project Developer & Local Moonshiner
Posts: 8610
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:32 pm
Location: Republic of Texas
Contact:

Post by Lucifer »

Check out the fortress threads. :)

Seriously, I'm willing to make a blanket statement that if you're 1 v 3 or 1 v 4 in CTF, then you defend your flag until it's taken and then suicide. Respawning your team is only an issue if you're near your base and you have to move to defend the flag because when it became 1 v whatever, it was the flag defender that died and not someone else.

There is an exception, which is if you're the last one left alive and you're attacking the other team's flag. If you can grab it, then do it and go to your base. You won't get the points for it because they'll grab your flag before you get there, but you will deny them from running your flag while being able to respawn your team to set back up, but that's obvious. The whole question we're actually talking about here is "if you're the flag defender and the rest of your team has died, what do you do?" because the other teammates have other options, and suicide is the best option only if you're unable to immediately seize the other team's flag or immediately respawn your team, or immediately lay in a flag defense around your own. Key word there is "immediately", because if what you can do is not immediate, we're really talking 2+ flag runs conceded with questionable results. I've actually watched a guy who swore up and down the best thing he could do was seize the other team's flag, and the other team ran ours like 12 times before he finally died. Some hero.
Image

Be the devil's own, Lucifer's my name.
- Iron Maiden

Sticky
On Lightcycle Grid
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:59 pm

Post by Sticky »

I think CTF is going down as my no 1 bitch fight game. None of the other games seem to quite provoke emotion as CTF. Ive been in a few games recently when its been all out fighting on each other. One guy even resorting to defing our own zone so no one could be spawned or capture.

I must admit I did provoke one situation where I polled a someone after being on the server for only a few games when I thought he was being intentionally difficult. But I felt vindicated as they continued that way for a long time after.

I recon it is the problem that people really do differ on the tactics and particularly those that are good at rubber/fortress but not CTF that only see killing and getting their flag as worthwhile pursuits. I suppose the other team games their tactics are quite set in stone where as there is a lot of differing opinion in CTF.

I must admit the situations where not to finish off the last guy on the opponent team really does divide people too. My opinion is if the last guy on their team does not have a solid defense or the flag then don't make any strong moves to kill her. I do get some stick for respawning their team too when I am running back with the flag, I do it to ensure that the last guy on their team dosent die and prevent me from capping.

User avatar
Lucifer
Project Developer & Local Moonshiner
Posts: 8610
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:32 pm
Location: Republic of Texas
Contact:

Post by Lucifer »

Well, it's like the early days of fortress. The base team layouts are established, positions and roles assigned, and now it's just a matter of getting everybody to subscribe. Then there are going to be tactics we know about now that will always be somewhat controversial (remember holing in fortress play?), and new tactics will be developed, some will be controversial, some won't, but most of the new tactics coming won't be generally adopted. That's fine because it's what gives different teams their own flavor.

And there will always be people who want to hog the ball. Same deal in fortress, people always wanting to conquer the zone. Those are the guys who think one defender is enough and bitch about half the team staying back to defend. Then they bitch when one defender won't hold out. Sure, they might get some short-term gains, but it's not a viable long-term strategy. Those same people will be the ones in CTF who think that going after the flag and never respawning the other team are the only "right" actions, bitch when the flag guard doesn't respawn them, etc. Ball-hoggers. The age old problem of sports. Short stop runs to left field, pushes the outfielder out of the way, and allows a base hit..
Image

Be the devil's own, Lucifer's my name.
- Iron Maiden

Sticky
On Lightcycle Grid
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:59 pm

Post by Sticky »

For the non yankee I belive that means...the goal keeper running up to take a shot at goal. Or for the British...the wicket-keeper running to the stumps insted of tossing to the bowler.

Post Reply