Fortress Opening: On the proper use of double-grinding

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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

Why should I be nice? It's the golden rule, dude. You want people to be nice to you, you've got to be nice to them, and this "I'm better than all of you" attitude of yours isn't causing you to be nice to anyone, not that I"m seeing anyway. I could be wrong, I certainly don't pretend to be perfect.

And you're right something's not clicking. You're going to a lot of effort to say you're better than I am and asking me to be nice. Doesn't make sense to me.
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Post by Tank Program »

...
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~*PsYkO*~

Post by ~*PsYkO*~ »

Exactly my thought and opinion there tank

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Post by newbie »

so here is my latest insight about openning

DG is fun in normal games but that is not how top players should play in tournament matches, at least i would not recommend this as a basic openning

normal group speed up and perfect break in the latest point (what most people think is the right openning) is not good for the whole team too, it may seem against logic but

breaking as soon as it is possible and taking a lot of space is the most efficient way of starting a round, it is not about speed, it's about positional advantage and comfort for other teammates

and that's what IMHO a field experienced team player should do most often in a tournament game, break early

summing up, the whole team should spread on the whole grid
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Post by Lucifer »

I'm willing to christen this the shotgun, if y'all don't mind naming it after a Dallas Cowboy move. :)

I think I wrote it on the wiki, but I've mentioned it elsewhere for sure, may as well toss it in here. I finally found a situation where it's useful, and that's only on the left side and only if the two guys on the left can play a wingman offense well. If the two guys there can play a good wingman offense, then you can rush from the left and that's what you get for it.

Recall that because of the way the spawn points were situated, the left side was more often a defensive side than an offensive side.

Anyway, I guess we'll see how it changes now that the ol' fortress server is down, eh?
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Post by meriton »

@newbie:
summing up, the whole team should spread on the whole grid
And I always thought it should converge on the zones ... ;)

I think you raise an important point, but not the only important point. Grinding well gives you more speed, and therefore a bigger proportion of the grid to manouver on. It also assists in exploding the opposing cycles.

A good opening strikes a balance between the safety of team mates and the immediate danger to the opposition.

Consequences:
- The split time depends on the skill of your team mates. A skilled team can get away with splitting much later.
- In large teams, the outer players (position 6 or larger, to a lesser extent also positions 4 and 5) do not contribute to the offenses' speed, and can therefore split as soon as they are clear of their zone. In small teams (2 or 3 players) even the goalie should grind (before setting up the defense) to give the offense a tactical advantage. (Of course, this presumes the other wingman survives the split and that the other team does not grind much better).

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Post by Lucifer »

Man, 3 v 3 fortress is the best. The most competitive and intense matches I've played have been 3 v 3. The only thing better (heh) is 2 v 3 when I'm on the team with 2 and we're gelling really nicely and winning. :)

Now, as for newbie's specific post, I'm going to have to say I haven't played many tournament matches, but my own experience would back him. Except that my own experiences including losing pretty bad when breaking early.

My own thoughts? I don't think it's really practical to have a general purpose opening. The ideal team that actually practices and stuff will work out several different openings that they can apply with an instant chat. Large team play in a highly competitive environment calls for some sort of flexibility that I don't think is given by a general purpose opener. That's a criticism I'm now leveling at every opening discussed as general purpose, not just double-grinding. Even grinding center and breaking in the middle of the grid isn't a good general purpose tactic. We've all seen and discussed what happens when someone works out a little niche move that they only use sometimes that defeats the main general purpose tactic and we've had our little bitch-wars over some of them.

So I think Truth is in flexibility.

Now, on the other hand, a team that does practice regularly will develop a standard opening that works for their particular composition, and I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm just saying it's important for that same team with a standard opening to be able to switch to others on the occasion they encounter a team who has an opening that counters their standard opening too well and uses it.
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Post by Phytotron »

Lucifer wrote:I'm willing to christen this the shotgun, if y'all don't mind naming it after a Dallas Cowboy move.
::coughs:: Shotgun Formation

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Post by newbie »

thx luci, this is what i mean

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meriton wrote: Grinding well gives you more speed, and therefore a bigger proportion of the grid to manouver on. It also assists in exploding the opposing cycles.
However in a tournament match (and 5vs5+) i would say something else:

Grinding longer gives you more speed but you also get less proportion of the grid to manouver on and therefore you increase your and your teammate's chances of ending up in a tight situation or suiciding. This becomes really important when people play in a shorter team.

Spliting late gives them nothing. It is better to break early or occasionaly DG on the left side(left wing).

In the spoon, probably in the first match ss vs aw, i pushed really hard, right after the split me and nemo (center position) were immediately grinding (lack was after us and has seen it) but against the expectations there was no real practical adventage, there was only a simple risk of teamkilling (hopefully nothing happened)

In the itw sometimes, when our wing (a2 team) forgot to turn early, the center player was forced to maze in a small area and the wing himself to go back to the zone and loose his position.

Anyway in the first ladle, sl vs aw, 8 vs 8 (i played there too), the first match showed why breaking late was wrong. Many suicides and uncontrolled situation turned out to be devastating for the team. Then staying alive, playing safe and hence splitting earlier helped a lot (i changed my mind about the double def too).

Image above (i have skiped goalies) shows a secure openning. And IMHO it has a good follow-up.

If there is no profit in breaking late (mostly), lowering risk becomes very important.
1, 4, 6, 9, 11, 21, 24, 33, 34, 35

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Post by meriton »

newbie wrote: Grinding longer gives you more speed but you also get less proportion of the grid to manouver on and therefore you increase your and your teammate's chances of ending up in a tight situation or suiciding.
That's what I said ("safety of team mates"). I understood your post, I only added that splitting late can be advantegeous in some circumstances.

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Post by Lucifer »

Well, what newbie is calling an early break is what I call a "standard break". :) A standard break, imo, allows the center to turn left or right without having to notify the team (although he should still tell the team because which way he goes changes what they do). I also get bitched at a lot because I want a break that's generally earlier than most people want, apparently.

Sue me, then. Newbie's absolutely correct. Then, on top of the standard break, double-grinding on the left makes it possible (but not guaranteed) to rush on the left where the left would normally be a defensive position because of how the spawn points are pointed.

Back when I first started with fortress, I had two break calls. One said "outside go". It was supposed to setup the back players, in newbie's drawing they're the two trails you see leaving as soon as they're out of the zone. Then I had "pull off" which was for everyone else. Often, if one of the people on my sides was someone I'd played with a lot, they'd hang on a tad longer and be safe still because we knew what we were doing. :) Anyway, that was when I decided that a 7-man team has 3 offensive players and 4 defensive players, and people have been arguing with me about it ever since.
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Post by meriton »

People have no clue ;)

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Post by newbie »

Lucifer wrote:Well, what newbie is calling an early break is what I call a "standard break". :)
like someone said "do simple things perfectly", i would call it also 'universal opening' :)
1, 4, 6, 9, 11, 21, 24, 33, 34, 35

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Re: Fortress Opening: On the proper use of double-grinding

Post by Goodygumdrops »

any new thoughts on this 3 years later? lucifer still hate double grinders?

this was an interesting thread to browse through

double grinding has proven itself a tournament strategy (although a fairly easy one to stop with either double grinding or early splitting)

the sad truth is that most of the players trying to double grind in the casual games still don't really understand how to do it
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Re: Fortress Opening: On the proper use of double-grinding

Post by compguygene »

About 3 months ago, Destiny noticed when we played CT that they make a particularly good use of double grinding. Literally, the entire team double grinds at the start in a very careful manner, such that they get the advantages of speed and spreading out to take up the as much of the grid as possible. The only way that we could counter it was to spilt short while positions 2 and 3 double grind, and attempt to get kills. We have practiced doing the double grind like CT does, however, I don't have enough players that are regularly available for Ladles at this time to practice this and other manuvers.

I also agree with Luci, flexibility is the key. I have probably read this and a few similar threads a dozen or more times to figure out what to do. For the purpose of flexibility we have several calls i call in via teamspeak. Here are some of the basic ones. "All def" everyone splits short and focuses on sweeping and getting kills. "Small def" is just 1 sweeper and a goalie, everybody else attacks. "Balanced def" is 2 sweepers and a goalie with 3 attackers.
Also, while spectating, I call in via teamspeak specific advice. When my team has listened and focused well, we have made it to the Semi-finals of the Ladle.
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