Fortress Opening: On the proper use of double-grinding

[Phytotron]

But [fe] are everyone's heroes! I mean, it's right there in their name, dude. Wise up Lucifer, you noob.

[newbie]

Moral of the story: quit being a hero. I'm tired of losing 9/10 matches so you can be a fookin' hero for 1 match.

IMHO you are wrong

let's play some matches 6vs6 and then we will see

[meriton]

I think you're ignoring a few things.

In a 3 v 3 game, ...

I never claimed double grinding is applicable in a 3 vs 3 game. In fact, I explicitly refer to the player to the outer side of the double grinder as a crucial ingredient. Obviously, in a 3 vs 3 game, there is no such player, so he can't grind, and the double grinder does not get enough speed to compensate for driving back.

It appears that your claim of vastly inferior speed for the center and the other side is based on this scenario, too.

This double-grinding thing is only suitable for large teams

I completely agree.

This is a scourge. It's use is very specialized, but people keep trying to do it all the time. It's like trying to deliver a baby with a sledgehammer. It's just not the right tool for most things, and when it is the right tool is a pretty rare occasion.

Well, double grinding is useful a little more frequently than that, isn't it?

I've stopped trying to leave room for you double-grinders at the break. It's just too risky to do. If I leave you rooom, I don't have enough speed to cover my side when you invariably kill yourselves after the break.

Invariably? How so? And why would you, beeing the player outside of the double grinder, be any slower than in a standard grind?

I also fall into the anti-double-grind camp, essentially for the resons stated above - you have to accomodate the double grinder, who may or may not be successful, but ultimately his motivation is the glory of using that extra speed to dominate the game.

I think it is at best premature to state a double grinder's motivation before there is consensus about the effectiveness of that method for the team.

The rest of the team are forced to compensate, and this, to me, means the D-G'er is selfish.

By that reasoning, a center player asking his team mates to split earlier is selfish, too, because his team mates are forced to compensate by breaking earlier. This is a team game, you have to give others room to play if you want the team to suceed. Asking for that room has nothing to do with selfishness. The criterion should be whether double grinding benefits the team.

I can totally see that this is a useful tactic in some situations, namely in a largish team, with clearly defined roles for all positions, with all team members well rehearsed in their respective roles. This situation is not real at the moment, but in time no doubt, it will be. Well rehearsed through the WHOLE TEAM, it could be extremely useful.

Most members of the team are not affected by the double grinder. The people affected are:

1) outside of the double grinder: should not grind insanely hard
2) double grinder: performs the whole thing, should be competent at it
3) center: must break to a specific side
4) other neighbour of center: must break earlier to leave room for center

Of these people, only 1 and 2 perform a maneuver that wouldn't be asked of them in a standard opening, and 1's maneuver is very similar (for most players even identical) to what he usually does.

I therefore really don't see how the "WHOLE TEAM" would be affected.

Nothing at all wrong with working on strategies such as this, but IMO it is important to remember that there are normally inexperienced players on the grid.

But double grinding doesn't tax them significantly more than asking them to grind, does it? For most positions, there is no difference at all.

It is becomng increasingly apparent that the fortress server is seen as an elite arena, where newbies have no place.

I don't like that much myself, but in what way is this related to double grinding?

I completely agree that speed is not everything. But part of the effectiveness of double grinding comes from the element of surprise: The double grinder is not visible to the other team until he is the foremost of his team, and that is only a split second before break.

And I look forward to give a demostration on the grid

The reason the other side loses is because to get the speed everyone in the front needs, they all need to grind quick. If you do this stupid shit, then the other two who need to grind on you don't get enough time. It's a symbiosis going on, it's not "everyone leech off the center". Those three guys in the center speed each other up, and when one of them takes too long to join the center, then nobody is going fast enough to do anything but die in the middle of the grid. Add to that that they have to break late on a large team so everyone has time to break and you have to wonder why so many of you double-grinders can't figure out why your team keeps losing.

I agree there is a symbiosis. That's why I think double grinding is not that bad. While it is true that center starts to benefit from the double grinder's wall at a later time, he also stops to benefit at a later time, because the higher speed of the double grinder causes him to shoot farther in front of the center and the center therefore takes longer to catch up. Admittedly, the center's other neighbour may be a little slower, but since he has no direct contact with the opponents, I don't see how that could matter much.

Even when both players immediately to the sides of the center double-grind, there are limitations. Since they've grinded late, nobody else is going fast enough,

Hold on. The time they grind is not the only thing that matters. What matters just as much is how long they are ahead of their mates and "pull" them forward - and this time is increased by the speed they gain by double grinding.

What normally happens ...

Yes, we got by now there are people who suck at double grinding. That does not rule out that there are people who don't.

Moral of the story: quit being a hero. I'm tired of losing 9/10 matches so you can be a fookin' hero for 1 match.

Double grinding does not neccessarily have anything to do with selfish behavior.

Oscillo:
Give me some credit for beeing a little more mature than that, would you?

[Lucifer]

THe problem with it not being a good general purpose tactic is that you don't know until after the fact whether it was a good idea to use it So you don't do it, you get to the middle and break, and then you're like "I should've double-grinded". Or you do it, and you get to the middle and can't break for some reason, and you're dead.

No, my claim of vastly inferior speed for the other side is not based on the 3 v 3 scenario. It's fun to think that the only walls that matter are the ones you grind directly on, but tht's not true. If everybody grinds really tightly, you get a lot more speed. So it actually does matter how soon everyone gets to the center, the team the gets there fastest and tightest is the one that will dominate the break. Even if the other team has double-grinders on it. So grinding tightly isn't only to stop the other team from going down the middle, it's also to get as much speed as possible.

The way it actually works out is that if the person to my left double-grinds, and I'm center, sure he shoots way ahead of me and leaves a slightly longer wall than he otherwise would have, but if I continue to grind to my normal breaking point, the other team will box me. So I have to break earlier or die, or hope I can squeeze down the other team's center tunnel. I suppose I could just use the hole left by the double-grinder, since they almost invariably kill themselves anyway. Anyway, the reason I'm in this situation is because it took the double-grinder so long to reach the center wall.

If both players on my sides double-grind, they have to break a little earlier, will be going a lot faster, but have to cover for the rest of the team that's now going slower. In exchange, I'm going faster than I would have otherwise by virtue of the really tight tunnel I just shot out of. And what do we get? Well, if the double-grinders don't kill themselves, they wind up having to play normal positions, they won't get to dominate the other team because of the early break. If they didn't break early, chances are they're dead, and the rest of the team that's now going too slow and has to break to cover their sides are probably dead too.

IN short, all you really get is a faster stalemate in the middle.

I'm open to the idea, though. I'm not one of those guys who thinks that if something doesn't work in 5 minutes it's not worthwhile. So I'm watching to see how it works out. however, much of my current opinion on this stupid shit is based on an episode where you, [fe]meriton, were on my side and double-grinding. So "only if you do it right" isn't sitting well with me. And to be a good general purpose tactic, there has to be some benefit to it even if you do it wrong.

[~*PsYkO*~]

Lol good thing meriton is putting forth good points because I don't feel like typing a lot...but I am 100% with meri..

[meriton]

THe problem with it not being a good general purpose tactic is that you don't know until after the fact whether it was a good idea to use it

Erm, why is that?

It's fun to think that the only walls that matter are the ones you grind directly on, but tht's not true. If everybody grinds really tightly, you get a lot more speed. So it actually does matter how soon everyone gets to the center,

Absolutly. I never said otherwise, did I?

The length of time the double grinder waits before turning back is of course variable. If he waits to long, he will reach the impact area to late and also fail to accelerate the center. However, if he doesn't wait so long, he will overtake the center early enough to provde a good acceleration.

The way it actually works out is that if the person to my left double-grinds, and I'm center, sure he shoots way ahead of me and leaves a slightly longer wall than he otherwise would have, but if I continue to grind to my normal breaking point, the other team will box me.

Yes, you need to move the breaking point back. And yes, only the time between the double-grinder overtaking and the minimum of you breaking or the double-grinder breaking counts. In a good standard grind, the center is ahead when he breaks, so the point he lost acceleration is behind the break point. In a good double-grind, he moves his break point back, but because the double grinder is faster, he looses acceleration later.

The precise location depends chiefly on when the double grinder turns back. In my experience, on tends to overestimate the proper delay, which is why newbies cause the problems you describe. But I still think the optimal delay is larger than 0.

It is clear that major speed losses for the center player hurt the team's performance. I am just not sure such losses are inherent to the maneuver.

however, much of my current opinion on this stupid shit is based on an episode where you, [fe]meriton, were on my side and double-grinding. So "only if you do it right" isn't sitting well with me.

When was that? I am new to doing it, so I may still have been learning. And who said I am doing everything right?

And to be a good general purpose tactic, there has to be some benefit to it even if you do it wrong.

What is your definition of a general purpose tactic? I mean, grinding center, if you do it wrong and crash, has no benefit either.

But I think we'll best settle this discussion once more experiences are available. I'll going to practise a little

[Lucifer]

General purpose = a good standard opening move, in this discussion. Everybody grinding center is a general purpose tactic. Everybody breaking at a certain point is also general purpose. While grinding seems to always be the most appropriate general purpose opening, breaking at certain points varies, and what you do after break varies. For example, on a 2 v 3 game, the two should grind to a reasonable breaking point, then turn back immediately and race back to defend. If they do it well enough, they might be able to overwhelm the 2 or 3 attackers coming their way. If not, they still get back to defend and lay on inner/outer defense.

Another good general purpose tactic is the goalie doubling back by turning toward center, closing the back, and then building his defense. However, in 3 v 3, if you want a dedicated goalie, he should grind instead, break early (when there's no more acceleration he can give), double back and then build his fortress. Depending on how his two attackers do, he may wrap around to seal the back, or he may just turn out and start his defense.

So what I'm saying aobut double-grinding. Sometimes, as you say, you can overwhelm the other team's flank and charge the zone. If your wingman is paying attention, then you get several people back there--eventually. It does seem to me that more often than not, the double-grinder kills himself instead. If he doesn't do that or overwhelm the flank, he's left racing to the rim wall, just like he would have done if he hadn't double-grinded.

As you say, in order to accomodate the double-grinder, his wingman needs to break early. Or rather, he needs to break at the same time, but he doesn't get you present to gauge his break. It's a little tricky, but not significantly so. That is, it's not hard at all if you're already accustomed to breaking on trust. Also, if he grinds right to begin with, he can give the double-grinder even more speed with a little tunnel and help to ensure the double-grinder will be able to overwhelm the other team's flank, if he doesn't kill himself.

Now there's always a catch. If the other team sets up with wide defenders, the obvious counter is to have their wide defenders break early. The double-grinder will get there significantly in advance of his wingman. So he winds up facing 3 defenders by himself, and if he's not a badass, he just threw himself away, or he has to retreat anyway and wait for his wingman. Otherwise, he winds up blocking his wingman when he engages his defense, which significantly reduces the team's chance of taking the zone.

As goalie, I watch to see which side needs defense first and while I double-back to seal the rear of the formation, I will double back again if the other side fails and I see enemies coming that way. It means I setup later, and I call for assistance--it's not a happy situation to be in anyway--but otherwise I've just handed over the keys to my fortress. For double-grinders, this usually means a free kill, because I have time to setup before his assistance arrives.

When I've seen this tactic used effectively, and you're probably going to laugh, it wasn't the guys next to the center doing it. It was the guys one more cycle out. So the three in the middle conduct a normal grind, but the next two out can double-grind. That gives them significantly more speed than they would have had, doesn't detract from the team's momentum significantly, and helps to build a better defense. In fact, it positions those guys so they can easily and effectively jump on the offense if the break goes well. They also have a much better chance to go around the other team's flanks, and it does tend to result in your two next-to-center players becoming wide defense instead, which is a bit counter to existing doctrine but very workable. When the double-grinding goes like that, I'm all for it, to be quite honest. I think it's a superior general purpose tactic in that case.

There's a potential maneuver that comes out of this, though, that I'd like to see. It's based on a tactic used by Hannibal against the Romans during the Punic Wars (and described in hideous detail in the Elfstones of Shannara). Basically, you break early and your guys in the center grind really tight. Your guys one out double-grind and go wide. The effect would be that your double-grinders circle around the back way in a flanking move to surround the other team's offense, and they'll cut back in short of the other team's zone to cut off the other team's offensive escape routes, and your guys in the center will engage the other team's offense so they can't do shit about it. Then it's just a matter of cleaning up the program parts. When you move to attack the zone, you'll attack 5 v 1. I think this would be an effective maneuver on a 5 person team that runs without a goalie. Quite the contrary, your 3 center players are your defense in this case, and they'll turn back to become goalies as needed.

Edit: Apparently I missed a point. What I meant about "you don't know if you should do it until after the fact". If the other team grinds well, your double-grinder winds up not being able to overwhelm their flank. True he might get around the other team still, but it won't be a move of domination, it'll be about 2/3-3/4 towards the rim wall that he'll get to turn out and charge the fortress. And he'll have a speed advantage, but not a whole lot, and as you know, when you make that turn, you no longer have any walls to grind. The defender picks up the speed advantage then, which is why some of us double back and hang out in the center a little longer in those situations. It's a feint. Anyway, if the other team grinds extremely well, then there isn't room for your double-grinder, and he's just going to kill himself. So, only if the other team only does a half-assed grind (or fails to grind) do you get to make your dominating move. And in many of those situations, if you don't double-grind, you don't get to dominate the other team. So after it's over, you think bck and say "I could've double-grinded and trashed them" or you say "I shouldn't hae double-grinded".

/me loves tactical discussions.

[KamP]

All i really see in this whole discussion is the same thing coming up over and over. And that's 2020's plea for organized teams. Basically, double-grinding spontaneously, without telling anyone, is not a good idea, so you should probably plan it out, obv without telling the opposing team, but hey what is /team for anyway.

Lucifer, that hannibal thing sounded nice, but it gets a little boggling, and i don't trust a team without a goalie. What's more it sounds like you're [placing a pretty big burden on two people. Little bizarre.
Diagrams forthcoming?

[2020]

All i really see in this whole discussion is the same thing coming up over and over.

and over
and over
and over


too much strategy talk
when we don't have the capacity to try things...

i mean
feather and i just tried to do the boring old missile
you remember that one?
well
it took forever to get the team to concentrate enough
stop bitching and slagging and kicking and such
and eventually we did it
and failed as it happens

so
anything more sophisticated has to wait until we have --
yup
you guessed it ---
teams we can choose

until that day comes
sophisticated team strategies is redundant
IMHO

[Lucifer]

Here's the diagram. I didn't draw in the gold goalie, assume he does like normal. I also went kind of lax on perfect straight lines and stuff. You should be able to read it, though, and see where the double-grinding is and what everyone's supposed to do.

Basicaly, you build a big box, and in this diagram I showed the option where the center turns around and goes back to be goalie. In this situation, he'd clearly have enough speed to outpace any attacker that tried to follow him.

[2020]

that's better luci

i like point doubling back to def
nice touch
though could be tight

i think you are over-estimating the speed gained from doublegrinding

would love to see it in action...

[KamP]

Ah, i get you. That's an old thing. Yea.

So double grinders are the people closest to center (dangerous, as we've already seen), but the outermost. And their job is to whiz around the other people, and box them in with the remaining inner people who break as normal, though of course, they will most likely get lag killed on the left turn of the err whizzards (just murphy's law man, murphy's law)

sounds really good though... in another fortress. I don't see it working in CVS fortress, because the walls are too short. Maybe Lobster fortress, man, but then again, there's turbo there anyway, so it wouldn't be anywhere near as effective. AND no one plays there.

hey z, shut down fortress and sumo for a little while, and see if any of the other fortresses get any traffic.

[belenus]

As meri was so free to mention me but Lucifer already said everything I'll just post a short comment even though it means saying stuff twice.

Double grinding sucks if you are the center player because...

...you barely get speed at all... (especially if there is only 1 double grinder, 2 MIGHT be able to compensate but only if they do it fast enough, but thats not that case in 99% of the time, might be the ppl are just not skilled enough or the double grinding sucks, or both)
...because of that you are too slow when its time to break off...
...and you are either dead because the other team can pick on you easily...
...or are just useless because you have to maze around a little and wait for walls to disappear.

And thats just from the point of a center player, although the other players do not get enough soeed either.

Second, I ALWAYS grind hard, means, I use rubber on the initial move to center player when grinding, I try to grind on him very early and hard.
That is to close the gap between the 2 walls and to be at center to get speed.
Thing is, that also is the best way to kill double grinders... thinking about that, if so many double grinders die that way, my way seems to be better and closes the gap better than double grinding... so if you double grind to close center, try using rubber instead and at least you won't crash into my wall because I will continue to grind hard and if I am closer than you are, the center is locked and your double grinding just sucked (and sucks) anyway...

Third, only the double grinder will get high speed, all other players will stay behind. If the other team grinds normal, their speed is higher than that of most players from your own team = other can easily kick your teams ass, especially if you die very early because you couldn't cope with that high speed and low rubber (and very few actually can)


All in all, I haven't yet met a player who was able to double grind and at the same time not to reduce the effectivity of his teammates.

Yes, double grinding is selfish and just hurts the team, if you don't think that way, you have to PROVE to me, and others, its not, but I doubt anyone of you will be able to do that on a regular basis (meaning its successfull and doesnt hurt ANY team member at least 9/10 times)

[newbie]

theoretical crap that has nothing to do with practice

stop talking and let's play a few matches, DG vs nonDG

it will be easy

[ed]

I've been center player player with a double grinder either side of me. I'm nothing more than fodder, a player merely sacrificed for their speed.
If they just let me out of the tunnel they were creating for me, with a left, right, left, doublebind, wham! I'd conquer the enemy base and lead the team to victory.
But no, they want their speed, so I can watch them misjudge the enemy players position, die, then scream "lag!".
Ask them not to do it or to break earlier, your cries are ignored. Try to TK them, in doing so take out a couple more of your team, nothing gained.

I'm with Gnorty. When done well on one side only, very effective move. If the center player has room to escape easily, apart from a little speed, nothing lost.
Need your teams backing.