Fortress Opening: On the proper use of double-grinding

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meriton
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Fortress Opening: On the proper use of double-grinding

Post by meriton »

Apperently some people have misconceptions about the usefulness of double-grinds. Some (such as belenus) seem to think double grinding is selfish, and hold a double grinder responsible for everything that goes wrong with an opening, up to and including a by far too late break on the other side of the formation. I can not change the attitude some people voice their objections with, but I can explain why I think double-grinding is useful.

---

How it works
A double grind is executed by the player next to the center. At start, the double grinder (DG) drives straight ahead for about a second, then does a 180 towards the center's wall, drives back along it, then executes another 180 towards the center's wall, then drives ahead. Meanwhile, the player next to the DG grinds normally, using medium rubber. The DG is then tightly squezzed between two walls, resulting in a very high acceleration.

Typically, the acceleration is so high that the DG reaches the impact area before the center. He waits until the last moment, then turns outwards, then tries to cut off one or more attackers. Center breaks to the other side. Since he is a bit slower, he must break a little earlier than in a standard grind.

Comparison to standard opening
The center player is a bit slower, but the DG is significantly faster than an center player after a standard grind.

A skilled DG can use this speed to kill serveral attackers, occasionally surprising them enough to reach the enemy zone right away. The center can still attempt a center insertion or maze until the enemy tails have receeded.

Common pitfalls and how to avoid them
1) center crashing on impact
Center must break to the other side of the DG and a little earlier than in a standard grind. After break, he might also like to have a retreat area between his wall and the next player's (in case the opposition is faster than him). However, if both the center and his neighbour know about the double-grind, this is achieveable unless you have an uncooperative team mate.

2) DG crashing because his outer neighbour grinded too hard
Grind harder yourself, or convince the neighbour to grind a little less tight.

3) DG reaches impact area later than his team mates
Reduce the delay between the first and second 180 so they get less of a lead.

When not to double grind
1) You have a neighbour who grinds too hard (you're no use if you're dead)
2) You have a neighbour who doesn't grind (you won't get enough additional speed by one wall to make good the lost distance. As a result, both the center and you are slower.)
3) You're not next to center (While this can give you speed, it won't do you much good because the center or the player next to him will be between the enemy and you. But you slow down those players who have actual enemy contact. Under no circumstance double-grind next to a double-grinder!)

Note: It is possible, though less useful, to have both neighbours double grind. In that case, one of the DG's must break early to give the center some room to survive. Tell the center which one of you that is...

Conclusion
Double grinding is difficult, but if you do it right, greatly enhances offense.

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dlh
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Post by dlh »

I always grind extra close -- just to kill the people who do this. It's great, because often the server categorizes such deaths as suicides.

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2020
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why don't you...?

Post by 2020 »

stick it in the wiki
meri
hold the line

meriton
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Post by meriton »

nemo:
Huh? And why? I didn't figure you for the team killing kind?

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Post by dlh »

meriton wrote:nemo:
Huh? And why? I didn't figure you for the team killing kind?
If someone does this, it is difficult to guess where they will shoot out from (after the break). They usually end up killing a teammate.

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Phytotron
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Post by Phytotron »

Plus, 180 grinding just deserves death. :twisted:

meriton
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Post by meriton »

If someone does this, it is difficult to guess where they will shoot out from (after the break). They usually end up killing a teammate.
"where" in the sense of how far from the fortress or in the sense of which side of a team mate's tail is the grinder on?

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2020
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ok

Post by 2020 »

as with most of these strategies
as part of a team's armoury
i think the doublegrind opener
could be very powerful
however
it is often just annoying
lop-sided
unpredictable
and forces a team to compensate for it
very often the point suffers
etc
etc

such strategies will continue to be annoying rather than powerful
until we get some kind of control over team-formation....
hold the line

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Post by newbie »

meriton wrote:
If someone does this, it is difficult to guess where they will shoot out from (after the break). They usually end up killing a teammate.
"where" in the sense of how far from the fortress or in the sense of which side of a team mate's tail is the grinder on?
;-)

there is no problem with this, it works awesome, especialy on the left side

newbs usually end up killing average DG, because they do not understand two words as 'break earlier'

after all for advanced DG it does not matter, with good timing they are always first to act before breaking

DG is one of the best moves

and on the other side there are very easy ways to slow down DG.... dunno why only few people do this :lol:

again, just break earlier :lol:
Last edited by newbie on Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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~*PsYkO*~

Post by ~*PsYkO*~ »

Ok, I'm the originator of this "tactic." It is a great strategy and the people who think it is useless are nubtards. Listen, I will guess about five people can do it right. The rest of the people that do it make many mistakes and hurt the team more than help, and this is why some people have the wrong idea about it. And those who think it is selfish are wrong as well...the only person that "loses" from a double grinder is center. I mean if the double grinder does it right, the center's loss is so miniscule, and the side that the double grinder is on gains so much...

Meri - Center doesn't have to break to the other side of the double grinder. I double grind every time if I'm next to center and if center complains about getting killed because I turned too late, then I will turn later than next round and try to make everyone happy.

Also Meri, double grinding is an effective way to stop a middle attack. For one it helps to grind hard on the center so its hard to squeeze through and two if the person squeezes the center than they get stuck in the end tails of everyone because they don't expect the way the double grinder's wall lays out.

Come on nemo, you think that the double grinder is hurting the team more than helping but in turn you are the one who is hurting the team more than helping.

I hate the people that grind so hard when they are the secondary wing for no reason other than the pleasure of team killing and then making out like they didn't do anything.

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Post by meriton »

If the double grinder is faster than center, I think it makes more sense if the center gets out of the way so the double grinder can engage the opponents. I agree that that it is not strictly neccessary, but I consider it advantageous.

I agree that the tight grind makes middle attacks more difficult, but any competent goalie will defend against such penetration by laying a wall behind the tails anyway, so I don't consider this a big advantage.

~*PsYkO*~

Post by ~*PsYkO*~ »

When I'm center it doesn't matter if the wings dont grind, grind normally, grind tight, double grind..doesn't matter I just go down the center lol

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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

I think you're ignoring a few things.

In a 3 v 3 game, if the guy on the left does this stupid shit (as I've been calling it), and the guy on the right doesn't, then your right side isn't going fast enough to defend its area. The center is going significantly slower than the other team and gets picked off easily, and the guy who's now speeding along races to the other team's fortress, usually kills himself, and leaves whoever's left on his team alone.

Against 3 enemies, usually.

Now, if the guy on the right does it too, fine. But don't forget you've also just prevented your center from being able to do anything and just about condemned him to death anyway.

This double-grinding thing is only suitable for large teams where you've already got a person on each side who's designated to defend that side. Otherwise, you double-grinders usually kill yourselves instead of doing anything helpful. On the rare occasion when you don't and you rule a side, it's great, but it's always at the expense of your own other side, which will collapse, and if you're lucky your goalie was able to protect it. Sadly, this isn't usually the case.

This is a scourge. It's use is very specialized, but people keep trying to do it all the time. It's like trying to deliver a baby with a sledgehammer. It's just not the right tool for most things, and when it is the right tool is a pretty rare occasion.

I've stopped trying to leave room for you double-grinders at the break. It's just too risky to do. If I leave you rooom, I don't have enough speed to cover my side when you invariably kill yourselves after the break.
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Post by gnorty »

I also fall into the anti-double-grind camp, essentially for the resons stated above - you have to accomodate the double grinder, who may or may not be successful, but ultimately his motivation is the glory of using that extra speed to dominate the game. The rest of the team are forced to compensate, and this, to me, means the D-G'er is selfish.

HOWEVER

I can totally see that this is a useful tactic in some situations, namely in a largish team, with clearly defined roles for all positions, with all team members well rehearsed in their respective roles. This situation is not real at the moment, but in time no doubt, it will be. Well rehearsed through the WHOLE TEAM, it could be extremely useful.

Which makes me think. 2 well rehearsed teams, each with a double grinder on the left. the opposing right side will have to counter, or perish. The immediately obvious counter is to break early, and lay lateral walls across that side. So we have each team with one hugely powerful attack, that is immediately negated because there is simply nothing for the attacker to aim at.

I'd be interested to see how it panned out, but I tend to think there is likely a more effectiive attack.


Nothing at all wrong with working on strategies such as this, but IMO it is important to remember that there are normally inexperienced players on the grid. It is kind of hard to refine strategies when 20% of your team are struggling to work out normal grinding, and that they are part of a team. It is becomng increasingly apparent that the fortress server is seen as an elite arena, where newbies have no place. For me, this is a big mistake - the newbs will be so badly abused they won't come back, to this, or any other server.

But most importantly, it is important not to get carried away with the effectiveness of techniques that are essentially as old as the game itself. Of course, speed imparts a significant advantage to a player, but it is rarely the best way to play. I have seen speed used very effectively on fortress, but the essential ingrediant is finesse, and that is what techniques based upon raw speed alone lack.

That turned into a long post, it didnt start out like that! Suffice to say, I dont particularly like this technique, but in the light of meri's points, will keep an open mind. I look forward to defending it sometime.

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Post by Lucifer »

Also, the center's not the only person that loses, the other side loses too. If you can get both people on both sides to do it, then it can work and work well, within certain limitations that usually aren't followed.

The reason the other side loses is because to get the speed everyone in the front needs, they all need to grind quick. If you do this stupid shit, then the other two who need to grind on you don't get enough time. It's a symbiosis going on, it's not "everyone leech off the center". Those three guys in the center speed each other up, and when one of them takes too long to join the center, then nobody is going fast enough to do anything but die in the middle of the grid. Add to that that they have to break late on a large team so everyone has time to break and you have to wonder why so many of you double-grinders can't figure out why your team keeps losing.

Even when both players immediately to the sides of the center double-grind, there are limitations. Since they've grinded late, nobody else is going fast enough, and now the people doing this stupid shit have to break and leave a mostly defensive wall--to give the rest of the team time to setup.. Sadly, this isn't what happens. What normally happens is the guy doing this stupid shit fails to estimate how fast the other team is going and kills himself. Now his team is not only going too slow to put up a good defense, but he's made a hole that allows even more of the other team through.

Luckily, the situation can sometimes be saved when your backup goes through your hole and gets to the enemy's zone quicker than otherwise. This, of course, makes you "double-grinders" into reasonably competent torpedoes.

Moral of the story: quit being a hero. I'm tired of losing 9/10 matches so you can be a fookin' hero for 1 match.
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