The Fortress

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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

Here's some general thoughts on defense from an attacker's perspective, and attacking.

I keep saying "Two can take the zone, but THREE CAN'T". Obviously, neither can 4, 5, 6, 7, or 23. The reason?

The reason is in the tight inner/outer defense that silly likes to run. You can have 3 cycle trails in the immediate vicinity of the zone. Once you add in a fourth, two of them will usually kill each other, which frequently leads to the death of a third, sometimes also the fourth will fall and nobody's left, like Hamlet. So when you run an inner/outer defense, you want the outer defense to be tight on the inner player's wall, just like if you were an attacker trying to compress the goalie, only without compressing him.

So when you get to the zone and you're thinking about taking it, you need to peel off the outer defender. Don't kill him! That'll leave a stationary wall. Instead, peel him off. He'll immediately accelerate to race back into position, *that's* when you kill him, after he's pulled his wall out of the way. Now you have room for 2 attacking walls, which is what you need to take the zone.

Unless you're particularly good at taking the zone single-handed, or the defense is weak enough that you can still do it.

What do you do when you're the third attacker to arrive at the zone? Depends. IF there's an inner/outer defense going, stand back and be ready to engage the outer defender when one of the other attackers peels him off. If there's no inner/outer defense going, stand back and play a guard position to prevent such a thing from developing. Remember, the zone is worth 10 points, and any opponent you kill adds 2 more points to your team score. Regardless of which is the case, you need to look back at your own zone and see how your goalie's doing. If there's even a single attacker on your zone, you might consider going back to lend aid to the goalie, as long as you can stay out of his way. Too many goalies have died from well-meaning assistance. But check your defense and see if they could use you. If not, hunt opponents but stay near the enemy's zone so you can replace one of your two zone attackers if need be.
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How to take the fortress

Post by Lucifer »

Ok, here's how to take the fortress. :) At least, here's how *I* take the fortress. I am concluding by the number of teams that have been asking me to join them when I arrive that I have probably learned a few things about it. :)

There are two simple rules you must always follow. One of these you've heard from me a few times, the other's new.

1. Two attackers can take the fortress. Three attackers cannot.
2. Never, ever, under any circumstances, surround the zone with your own wall! If you're an attacker, and you surround the enemy's zone with your wall, you have just strengthened their defense. You have also made it possible for their goalie to attack you directly, which he will usually do. He has the upper hand in this situation, because you're sandwiched between your wall and his. So don't ever surround the enemy's zone with your own wall.

Ok, so here's how you approach the zone.

First, decide how you intend to take it. There are some basic methods which I will now describe, complete with names. Bonus!

Spiral of Death

In the spiral, you don't want to be in the spiral. You want to force the goalie into a spiral from which he can't recover. You do this by compressing the zone, typically. Pick a side to work, and then cut his corners and keep grinding on his wall. This forces him to turn in a little deeper each time around and eventually results in him either just dying, or spiraling into death. Then you go ahead and surround the zone, because as soon as his wall disappears you want to defend the zone from his teammates.

Just take one section

As silly as it sounds, this is how to take the zone from supertard and silly, and it works on most others. Only take a section of the zone. Don't try to take the whole thing. In fact, getting greedy will usually get you killed. Instead, lay a wall across, say, half the zone, and then maze in the other half. Defend the half that's yours! Work it so that you'll come back around where you placed your first wall *and* you won't leave any breaches where you've already been. The goalie is forced to stay in the zone and maze, and will usually have to pull out. He will usually pull out about the time you reach the middle again, and then you widen the area of the zone that's under your control. He has to pull out and the zone will start spinning. He'll usually get back in, but now you've started a chain reaction where he'll have to pull out earlier and you can widen again. You take the zone inch by inch, and you'll usually turn it over with the goalie still alive, and still controlling 1/3 of the zone or so.

Force the goalie out

There are a number of ways to force the goalie out. A well-placed wall in his zone through an open area can force him out. Too much pressure from one side can force him out. A well-placed and timed feint can draw him out. Then you just keep him busy while one of your teammates slips in and defends the zone behind you. There isn't much difference between this one and the previous one, except that when you decide to force the goalie out, you don't necessarily decide to take the zone yourself.

Insertion

This is hard, but it's the one everyone likes to try. It's simple, insert yourself in between the space between the goalie's cycle and the tail of his wall. It's hard, and it's usually what people are trying to do when they circle the zone in the first place. It's also prone to failure, because that gap is moving. A goalie who will fall to insertion will fall much easier to a torpedo attack, which requires two attackers with one willing to sacrifice himself to allow the other to take the zone. Luckily, there is currently no shortage of such attackers because it's a fun move. :)

After you've picked your method, which will vary from goalie to goalie, you need to examine the defensive wall and figure out how to execute the method. This is a custom job! There is no right way to do it every time! This is where attackers need to have talent. :) So if you're talentless, become a torpedo. Also, each attacker that arrives at the zone needs to be able to evaluate what the other is doing so he can help. When one attacker is trying to take the zone piece by piece, then the second attacker can help him by throwing a horseshoe-shaped wall around the area the goalie has. Then the goalie has no escape, he must crash when the first attacker expands his area of control. If the attacker is trying to setup an insertion, then a torpedo will work just as well. Call to become a torpedo, or to tell the other guy to become a torpedo. Spend a few seconds positioning yourselves for the attack. The torpedo player needs to try to hit about 1/3 of the way past the goalie's cycle. If he hits too late, the goalie will refresh the wall. If he hits too early, the goalie will see and double back to close the hole. When he hits, he has to hit early enough that there is enough time before his wall collapses for his teammate to grind it into the zone without the goalie seeing.

Also, consider feinting. That's the art of misdirection. :) Make a feint where you try to insert yourself, then anticipate how the goalie will defend against it. How he moves will determine where you'll go, but you might be able to insert anyway if you feint first.

Now consider the goalie. If you haven't faced him before, you might play a bit conservatively. If you have, then you will have an idea what to do. When the goalie is a weak player, I will lean towards insertion. But fitting through that gap is a move I've only ever seen about 3 players do consistently without dying, and I'm one of those 3. But you can't insert yourself if there's no gap, and I'm not in a hurry to maze on the goalie's terms. When the goalie makes a maze, I tend to go in a ways, then come back out. That's a feint, I want him to think I'm entering the maze so he'll move to defend against that, but I'm actually just trying to force him out of the zone. So I'll come back out and watch for where he has to pull out, and when he does I'll move to close his return path. With that done, when I'm the only attacker, I'll then turn around and find my own way in. This usually results in me trying to take it piecemeal, because I didn't kill the goalie.

I wanted to end with a screenshot. :) I'll describe the last round mostly because I won it for the team, but I don't want to leave out the other stuff. This match was played last night, and I've already forgotten who some of the players were. You'll see in the screenshot. Every round was fought inch by inch, every player played very well, and both teams played exceptionally well. It was a really great match.

The last round started with the score 96-94, and my team wasn't winning. Before it started, I told the team not to attack the zone, instead to kill, because we only needed 3 kills. From the starting line, our center got killed right away, and I killed one of the other team's players right away, making it 98 to 96. Then I hunted and killed a second player, making it 98 to 98. When I killed the third player, I managed to stay alive just long enough for the server to declare my team the winner. Unfortunately, I killed him in such close quarters that I didn't live after that, and the score came up to a tie.

Like I said, though, both teams played very well. I may have won the 3 kills that won the match (and it's an arguable victory since the final score was tied at 100), but every round was a struggle, and there were no real star players. Everyone was a star player, I guess you could say. There was never a point in the match where one team was clearly winning. When a team won a round, the other would come up and close the gap immediately, or take the lead. And every round was pretty intense, a struggle for every meter of the grid.
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KamP
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Post by KamP »

Man, who knew this topic would go on so long
should probably split the topic into offensive schemes and defensive schemes or somethin

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Post by Lucifer »

Heh, focus, Kamp. :) When I jumped in, there were serious weaknesses in defensive play all the way across the board. Now defense is tightening up, and the weaknesses in offensive play have become more important. I don't know if this thread is responsible for the changes (I've been on the grid getting people to play defense, and playing defense myself), but that's what I'm seeing. :)

I did look at moving this thread to the wiki, but it's organized so completely differently I think it would be better if the posters would just go to the wiki, find the appropriate place to add their 2 cents, and do it.
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belly1
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Post by belly1 »

just my 2 cents.............

i played this game a few times. ppl would run along my wall on my team then get mad when i changed directions and blame me for killing them.

the way i see it is........ shouldnt be riding my wall if u are not prepared to handle me turning to avoid a crash myself. if u cant turn out in time then tough on you.

its all fair enough saying this missile strategy works well, i can see how it does, but there is always a few casualties on the team........ and from where i sit, i know i dont want to be one of them. and im sure neither does anyone else on the team.

i did enjoy the game but when your team mates whinge at you for "killing them" when in reality its just their own fault for riding your wall and not being ready to turn out in time...... it kinda loses its fun.

its a game. not like its a serious thing.

but thats just my views.

belly
xx

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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

Pardon me, but if you take a left turn in your car, cutting someone off, without so much as a head nod, the crash is your fault. Right? Right.

Very few teams win in anything, be it sports, engineering, or whatever, without the members communicating with one another. No teams win that sit around trying to push off blame onto others.

All that said, there are a few things people do that are known to completely wreck a team. Turning off when people are grinding your wall at the start without saying anything and without even looking to see if they're still there is one of them. Doubling back through the zone is another. You can deny it all you want, in which case you shouldn't play on a team. Need empirical evidence? Go to spectator mode and watch.
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Post by hang3r »

I'm sure most of us agree with you on some of the things you mentioned. However it is appropriate and polite to give your team members some kind of warning (if you know them to be behind you grinding). So a quick instant chat telling them which direction you are turning should be made.

Thats my opinion.

EDIT: lucifer bet me too it :D

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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

Heh hanger, I've got a whole diatribe on games and their importance in life. And the whole thing revolves around work ethic and the drive to succeed. Both work ethic and the drive to succeed come out in a competitive game like this, and frankly it wouldn't surprise me if in 20 years we do a "Where's all the armagetron people?" and find most of us are running companies, heading very successful and important teams, have wonderful happy marriages, and all that jazz.

But I'll spare you the diatribe this time. ;) But consider yourselves warned. Heh.
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Post by Phytotron »

Lucifer wrote:...and find most of us are running companies, heading very successful and important teams, have wonderful happy marriages, and all that jazz.
I'll take the wonderful happy marriage and the jazz, but you guys can keep the rest. I ain't no pig! :wink:

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Post by Fonkay »

belly1 wrote:i played this game a few times. ppl would run along my wall on my team then get mad when i changed directions and blame me for killing them.

the way i see it is........ shouldnt be riding my wall if u are not prepared to handle me turning to avoid a crash myself. if u cant turn out in time then tough on you.
I guess this would depend on how early you are turning. You're supposed to be turning out at the last possible second. If you're turning half way to the point of impact, it's your fault. However, if you're turning at the last possible second, then the fault is on them. Teamates should know that you will turn to your respective side (If' you're on the right, or in the middle, turn right, if you're on left, turn left). Unless called otherwise.
You need to remember that you are on a team here, and not fending for yourself. If you do it once and they complain, just give them a shout (I'm turning left/right!) right before you turn, and they should have no excuse.
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Post by Tank Program »

Enter teamspeak...
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Post by gnorty »

In defence of Belly's post, There is a situation which often occurs on a busy server where a person comes in on the outside of the group, and wants to attack. he will push all the way to the front, not caring to give those ahead room to move.

They are the first to cry when they get cut off. As a naturally defensive player, I tend to want to break quite early and give myself time to build an effective block before the opposition arrive. Of course, if I am near the middle I have to consider those behind, but it is annoying when they push to the last split second before breaking. Of course I could go with them, and then when I turn back towards my base, I will cut them off there.

Best situation would be the wannabe attacker go wide early on and attack from the flank, while I doubled back earlier and was ready when the middle cleared, but how do you get this message through to some newb who is furious because you keep cutting them off?

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Post by Lucifer »

Heh, the only time the situation you're describing happens, gnorty, is when several people join at once and they all get assigned to the team at the same time. Otherwise, new players are always placed immediately to the left or right of the center. In fact, belly is most likely specificlly addressing a situation where he came in after me (to a winning team) and started cutting me and the guy next to me off, making our team a losing team. When I bitched, he attacked me. And now he's basically saying "tough shit, this is how I'm going to be, and if you don't like it, go play somewhere else." Au contraire, you're the newcomer, you go somewhere else. You wanna be inconsiderate of your teammates? Don't play on a team. Since Fortress is a team server, don't play there. Simple as that.

(can't wait till he tries this crap on Lucifer's Fortress, I will kick and ultimately ban people who won't be part of their team. You don't have to be a good player or anything, just don't maliciously attack your teammates without the team's support)
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gnorty
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Post by gnorty »

I did wonder if there was some history behind your reply ;)

I have been trying to fathom the way players are positioned and can't work it out. When I first started playing, I used to drift towards the middle. Now, lately I tend to start in the middle and drfift outwards.

does the software take note of where on the map you tend to operate and position you accoridingly?

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Post by Fonkay »

On the note of banning. There are a few people who come in quite frequently only to talk trash and dump teamates . Why haven't these people been banned?
Fidel Costro ... he's one, but there are many others.
He will come in at least once a day, gets kicked, and comes back again, and again, and again.
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