Concord's "non-grinding"

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Kijutsu
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Concord's "non-grinding"

Post by Kijutsu »

http://playfortress.wordpress.com/2010/ ... -grinders/

Comments seem to be disabled, dissapointed because I'd like to see opinions about this, so... anyone?

Word
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Re: Concord's "non-grinding"

Post by Word »

where's the difference when you go to an open Fortress server where you can suspend players (DS Mega) - and when you go to a closed server where you can uninvite them with the same result (some ladle server)?

how do you differ between "real" nongrinders and players that are afk?

would you also not suspend/kick players that are afk? (although there's a server setting for it it can change the whole score really quickly)

how should new players be able to learn it then? (if everyone else goes to the locked servers - i know that's only the worst scenario)

What do you do with teamkillers then?

i remember getting teamkilled suspended and kicked in my first fortress games, and it helped ;)
Concord wrote:To suspend, kick or team kill someone for not grinding is just as wrong as kicking them for sealing the center, sweeping or holing.
who does that? :o

The question is, don't non-grinders affect the game in a worse way than teamkillers do? I mean, the poll system was also created because of teamkillers, wasn't it? A non-grinder can be responsible for the death of up to 4 mates (when he has position 4, position 2 can't split, position 1 can't find an exit, they leave dead tails, ---> defender and last sweeper die.)

Even if my post doesn't look like it, i agree that you shouldn't kick people for not grinding as long as the server settings don't ensure it - but in fortress, it's nearly impossible not to break the other rules (and I don't mean some code of honor like in DF, but teamkilling) when you don't grind - so, in other words, we don't suspend them only because they aren't able to follow our doctrine, but because they are a danger for the entire team.

If the aim of your blog entry was to begin a paradigm I think you need to convince players that teamkilling is another valid behaviour...

Hoax
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Re: Concord's "non-grinding"

Post by Hoax »

Vogue where's your opinion? :)
It's true that they don't have to grind, or do anything for that matter.
However the majority disagrees & they act on it by making use of kick polls or /vote suspend.
Therefore people who don't want to grind should make use of the own server and /lock suggestion.

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MrsKsr
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Re: Concord's "non-grinding"

Post by MrsKsr »

To be honest.. It's harder to "help" new players in game with ridiculously large numbers. Example; Last night there were 10/11 of us in a server and there were a couple of newbies on our team. After maybe 5/10 mins they got the concept of grinding and then later the splitting ~ when to split and so forth. Not to mention that grinding is quite important as a tactic, yes, but in the scheme of things it's just the tip of the iceberg. It doesn't teach how to attack etc etc.

I think if a bunch of people are shouting at you to do something it can be very disconcerting. One person explaining a reason why people grind and split in a calm manner is much better than being like "GRIND FFS!!!" (I know I've done it myself :d) Or suspending for the sake of being nicer than kicking, yet doing nothing at all while the person is suspended.

It's down to patience, of both the new players and the others in the server. Sometimes you don't want to spend a long period of time explaining something so you vote yes to the kick or suspend. After all they are a poll, majority rules; if the majority of people in a server are annoyed by ^ behaviour then you have to accept that they're going to remove the annoying person from the game.
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Kijutsu
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Re: Concord's "non-grinding"

Post by Kijutsu »

Well, yes, dubStep. However the issue is moreso whether or not you would allow someone not to grind, sometimes when I try to help people by saying "grind center player in beginning" for example, I get rude comments back (lol) so I take that as a hint that they don't want to learn. Concord is suggesting not to suspend/kick/tk that person but rather letting him/her play and not grind.

I don't agree with it at all, for a simple reason; it ***** up the entire team.

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MrsKsr
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Re: Concord's "non-grinding"

Post by MrsKsr »

obvious troll is obvious.

If people don't want to learn and it's clear that they don't care about the rest of the team then I say kick them, without suspending first. If a person has any kind of brain in their head they would realise their actions are detrimental to teamplay, especially if they already know how to talk etc. Therefore, yes, if people are intentionally not grinding because they don't feel like it, as opposed to not knowing they're "supposed" to, then what is the point in ruining everyone else's game? Just because one person says allow them not to grind.. Nah I'll stick to my kick polls :]
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Re: Concord's "non-grinding"

Post by Flex »

Well.. I responded to that article and either someone deleted it or made it invisible. I clearly made my point that there's a time and place to allow a non-grinder to not grind and in a public game where people are trying to have fun and actually "win", rather than allowing a non-grinder as Word pointed out, a massive disadvantage to the team.

Either you're suggesting we drop the winning part? (which is just your choice and not your choice to force on others) or in fact you should go ahead and make your own server and allow people to not be forced to grind. Personally on DS Mega Fortress, as a Mod I always cancel vote kicks and suspend any troublesome players and people prefer that option the most. If G5 decides to make it a rule to not suspend non-grinders, then I'll follow that on his server and go else where for my own pleasure.

Maybe there is obviously a much better way to help new players out, but right now we've made it a common practice to suspend them and try and speak to them and that's what I personally follow. That article just has no substance and doesn't really look at all sides of the issue and in essence sounds like a quick fix to one side of the problem.

P.S. Thanks for deleting my opinion. Noted.

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Re: Concord's "non-grinding"

Post by epsy »

Comments are disabled for this specific post. Don't ask me why.

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Mkay1
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Re: Concord's "non-grinding"

Post by Mkay1 »

This is why tank should lock...

Concords post is a very controversial topic, along with politics-both sides have good points but they never seem to work.

Edit: and liz why would you make this topic when you clearly knew that comments were disabled? Is it the lack of inference or liking to cause drama?

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Re: Concord's "non-grinding"

Post by forums »

Mkay, that post is only going to prevoke a negative post from liz. Like in your post, why post that at all?

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Kijutsu
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Re: Concord's "non-grinding"

Post by Kijutsu »

Anyway, maybe I misinterpretated Concord's post, but it seemed like an interesting discussion.

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apparition
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Re: Concord's "non-grinding"

Post by apparition »

Concord's post on Playfortress is a statement based on this forum topic posted by Lackadaisical:

Board index -> Armagetron -> Strategy -> Dealing with people who don't grind

Goodygumdrops
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Re: Concord's "non-grinding"

Post by Goodygumdrops »

concord's getting so good at this i might start visiting these forums more often
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