Team Sumo Strategies

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PsYkO
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Re: Team Sumo Strategies

Post by PsYkO »

Phytotron you actually bring up a good point. Making zone captures 0 is a very interesting concept and I would be interested in a tourney like that. Maybe onle 30 max for a zone or just 30 PTA for last man standing. However, durka (I think) had the most points most of the matches and I think all of the finals matches

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Z-Man
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Re: Team Sumo Strategies

Post by Z-Man »

Indeed, I personally do view sumo in its current form as an organized camping, but I don't see anything bad about it :) It's all about indirect combat, putting pressure on the others to give them less room, making them screw up before you screw up. Still, mixing things up wouldn't hurt, though I don't really think sumo is the right framework for that. I might be wrong. Anyone up for an experiment? Bugfarm Combat Sumo is up. So far, no change relative to regular default sumo except for the zone conquest score.

Edit: a small code change would probably be required for this to truly work. On zone collapse death, the last enemy influence needs to be credited with it. Right now, you can just deny your enemies points by driving away.

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Lackadaisical
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Re: Team Sumo Strategies

Post by Lackadaisical »

Interesting points Phytotron.

Well the first skill is pretty universal, because it's basically gaining an upper hand by region control. In my mind, getting the center of the zone is a similar problem as trapping another player either in your tail or against the wall/corner. In both situations you need to be in the right place at the right time (and of course, with the right speed) and also keep an eye open for sudden opportunities like holes/dead players/receding tails/other player dynamics. (One of the reasons why 1v1 is far less fun because two good players will just end up in a stalemate until one of them makes a mistake)

Back when I was playing last man standing it was still fair game to play like that, but the cycle density was pretty high back then and probably had some different settings.

Being able to survive in a small space is always a good skill to have, never a goal on itself though.

Have you seen any of the games in the TST? Although sumo does have the ingredients to become a campfest, higher level games tend to be pretty hectic (and fun!)


(note that I was typing this before I read z-mans and psykos post because I type slow as hell) :snail:


Oh and ++ to sumo without zone points.

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Re: Team Sumo Strategies

Post by Concord »

The Fortress Test server, which is still up, but more on that later, has a map for under 4 players that is sumo with the spawns in the center. It is a nice take on it that rain and I developed. (http://beta.armagetronad.net/resource-b ... .aamap.xml)

Perhaps we could deflate the scoring, too.

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Re: Team Sumo Strategies

Post by newbie »

Z-Man wrote:It's all about indirect combat, putting pressure on the others to give them less room, making them screw up before you screw up.
Seems right to the point.

If someone blames campers for camping and winning... sorry, you're not good enough to compete with them, because if both players are on the same level, then they would need something more than just camping in order to win. It's common that less skilled players crash earlier.

Last man standing was about killing players. Fort/sumo isn't. It's about taking zones and spaces. Killing players is only a direct result of this action. It doesn't matter if your victim dies right away or 10 seconds later.

Campers are harmless. In team sumo players trying to hunt others are the troublemakers, not the camping ones. Campers do not take space. Campers do not attack. Campers do not win. If you loose to a camper, it's because you failed.

Attacking requires proactive, pressure oriented game-play and sadly tail shrink successfully killed it.

It's very unnatural and odd that, while working on your opponent, you can't cut him by a 90 degree cut, because you gonna crash on his tail end, but at the same time he can easily make the same 90 degree cut against his own tail end and live.

Tail shrink gives more power to the defensive players and makes camping easier. Tail shrink favors campers. Tail shrink weakened players focused on attacking.

Attack is done in cycles and can be made only once every few seconds. If there are too many players inside one zone or the zone is relatively small, it's very difficult to operate with active pressure or build up an attack. Those 8 players per zone games are camping oriented because there is not enough time for anything except survival. They are designed to force camping. And it's not because there are 8 people, it's because the available space per player is way to small.
Lackadaisical wrote: Oh and ++ to sumo without zone points.
Random kills, random wins. We've talked about this. How this relates to you agreeing on the 'there-are-never-clear-winners' issue? Anyway kill points have been proven to be wrong in the 1vs1 knockout tournament and tst.
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Concord
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Re: Team Sumo Strategies

Post by Concord »

proven's a strong word

I have a solution, don't play sumo, play fortress.

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Van-hayes
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Re: Team Sumo Strategies

Post by Van-hayes »

I like the idea of no zone points, or at least lowered zone points because of the "luck factor" zone points add. This is to do with regular sumo games as I haven't played tournament sumo iirc. The best example I think is if in a 4 person zone someone kills one player then 2 players kill each other the 4th gets 180 points for doing nothing, doesn't happen very often but when its 3 in a zone 2 people killing each other happens a lot still giving the 3rd 120 points for pretty much doing nothing.

Take out the zone points and maybe lowering the limit to win, or upping the points for a core dump would make it more to do with skill and less to do with luck I think. Or to make it more like actual sumo take out core dump points all together and make it so if you ever leave your zone, even for a second, you lose. Though I'm not sure how well that would go over with people, or how fun it would be.
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Z-Man
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Re: Team Sumo Strategies

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newbie wrote:It's very unnatural and odd that, while working on your opponent, you can't cut him by a 90 degree cut, because you gonna crash on his tail end, but at the same time he can easily make the same 90 degree cut against his own tail end and live.
Are you sure about that? Usually, the tail moves at the same speed as the cycle. If you're using up rubber, it moves at the speed of the cycle times the tail shrink factor (provided rubber is purely distance based and we can neglect the refill rate). So unless the tail shrink factor is one or greater, you'll have a bigger chance of survival against the tail end than the owner of that tail; faster moving tails are less dangerous. Of course, you also have to worry about the tailchasing cycle.

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sinewav
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Re: Team Sumo Strategies

Post by sinewav »

Van-hayes wrote:Or to make it more like actual sumo take out core dump points all together and make it so if you ever leave your zone, even for a second, you lose.
I always thought the only point that should be given in Sumo are SCORE_SURVIVE and SCORE_WIN, since they are the most reliable. That way a player who has been dead for a minute can't get core dump points. And the whole suicide -30 thing is dumb too.

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Re: Team Sumo Strategies

Post by newbie »

Z-Man wrote:you'll have a bigger chance of survival against the tail end than the owner of that tai
I think it is self-explanatory. If you hit your own tail end, it's get shortened. If someone hits your tail end, it doesn't get shortened, isn't?
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Hoax
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Re: Team Sumo Strategies

Post by Hoax »

I wouldn't change the way I play at all if every sumo server implemented this right now

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Lackadaisical
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Re: Team Sumo Strategies

Post by Lackadaisical »

newbie wrote:
Lackadaisical wrote: Oh and ++ to sumo without zone points.
Random kills, random wins. We've talked about this. How this relates to you agreeing on the 'there-are-never-clear-winners' issue? Anyway kill points have been proven to be wrong in the 1vs1 knockout tournament and tst.
How do you mean they have been proven wrong?

I thought the 'there-are-never-clear-winners' had more to do with playing with more than 4 players and multiple zones? Do you still have logs of the conversation because i can't remember exactly what we all talked about.

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Z-Man
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Re: Team Sumo Strategies

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newbie wrote:I think it is self-explanatory. If you hit your own tail end, it's get shortened. If someone hits your tail end, it doesn't get shortened, isn't?
Yeah, but without the shortening, it would stop dead if you hit it; the tail length is what is constant. Even touching your tail the teeniest bit caused you to explode before wall shrink was introduced.

PsYkO
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Re: Team Sumo Strategies

Post by PsYkO »

My biggest worry with the kill thing is I see a lot of time messed up core dump points. Yesterday I boxed somebody with a triple bind and the points got awarded to someone else lol.

I'm glad to see this idea is taking off...Especially with a lot of input from awesome sumo players!

Anyone down for a TST with these settings possibly next month? I can set it up but adminning/servers are not my thing, + i want to play :P

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sinewav
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Re: Team Sumo Strategies

Post by sinewav »

Why just TST? I think the scoring in all Sumo servers should be changed.

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