Who covers center attacks in Fortress

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Who should cover center attacks in Fortress?

Position #1
23
59%
Both wingmen
11
28%
Who cares, just let the defense handle it
5
13%
 
Total votes: 39

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madmax
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Who covers center attacks in Fortress

Post by madmax »

I'm curious to know what other people think of who should cover center attacks. Recently the responsability of doing so seems to have shifted from the wingmen to position #1...

Well, what I think is that wingmen should always grind as tight as possible, and center is sort of a "last resort", although it obviously should try to kill players nearby, which are most likely the ones trying to get through.
This "#1 covers center" seems to happen because both #2 and #3 usually double grind, and end up with a poor one. Even funnier is that some times players doing so don't care much about it, and keep doing a light grind, leaving center the job of covering it.

Of course the defense should protect center as well :wink:

So, what do you think?
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Lucifer
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Post by Lucifer »

Defense should always close the back. The ultimate responsibility lies with him, I think.

If the wingmen make bad grinds, the center should leave room for the opposing team to take advantage of it. Free points.
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Post by sinewav »

We need another option: "everyone's responsibility" :)

I've too have noticed this new trend of attacking down the grind between Pos-2&4 and even Pos-4&6. Generally, I think closing the grind is the responsibility of the center, since a majority of attacks (used to) happen there. It seems to me that the first time there is a center attack through the side (Pos-2&4, or Pos-4&6), the the wingmen need to take the responsibility away from center. If that still doesn't work, it looks like it's up the the defender to hold of center attacks until the sweepers can clear out enough space to set up a proper defense.

Excellent topic madmax. :wink:
Last edited by sinewav on Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by noob_saibot »

I was taught the ways of the Fort by a young, wise Jedi who is no longer with us anymore (you guys might know who he is, though he really is not a Jedi). He taught the ways of blocking center attacks from position 1, which I have grown pretty fond of. Obviously an effective way is having the defender close back as mentioned above. But why not have both done simultaneously? Seems both would guarantee no center attacks...for the most part.


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Post by Corn1 »

Although the wingmen should grind as hard as possible for obvious reasons, the position 1 should take the necessary precautions as well. When it comes down to the team losing because of a center attack there is no 1 person responsible because there are things that the defense, wingmen, AND position 1 must do in order to stop a center.

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Post by MaZuffeR »

#1 covering the center is the most effective way, but also the hardest and most risky. It seldom kills the player attempting a center attack.

Tight grinds (4.5+) by the wings is usually effective enough and kills the player attempting a center attack most of the time. There is of course the risk of dying while grinding, because of lag.

Well-organized teams should never use either of these tactics, it's not very hard to come up with virtually risk-free, yet effective teamtactics to block the center. I'm actually sort of disappointed that none of the clans (to my knowledge) use any "advanced" tactic to block center attacks. Easiest example: #1 and #2 break at exactly the same time. I admit that this is pretty easy to screw up, but when it's done right it makes the center attack impossible.

The defender should of course always cover the tails, this however get less effective the more players there are on the team; more tails in the zone means the center attacker gets more space inside the zone.
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Post by madmax »

Lucifer wrote:Defense should always close the back. The ultimate responsibility lies with him, I think.
If the wingmen make bad grinds, the center should leave room for the opposing team to take advantage of it. Free points.
Yep, that's exactly why closing the back is pretty much a standard practice. The problem is that if the wingmen make bad grinds, it's not certain that the defense will be able to handle it. As Maz said, if you have a large number of players, the attacker as a lot more space, and he could also delay the attack until things in the zone are more cleared out.
sinewav wrote:I've too have noticed this new trend of attacking down the grind between Pos-2&4 and even Pos-4&6.
I think this is usually less efective than attacking through 1&2/1&3 because if you attack too soon, there's a good chance you'll encounter some twists along the way (from players joining center).

Anyway, I think grinding tight on 2&3 is always essential even if there's some risk envolved... and you'll potentially get higher speeds too.

Btw, I didn't want to put a "They should all do it!" option to see where you think the main responsability lies.
I'm assuming the defense will always cover the back anyway. :)
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Post by Lackadaisical »

I think the wings play a more important part at the start, blocking the opponent wing so they can't make a run, so I'd prefer the #1 taking the risk instead of them.

Speaking of teamtactics, I thought of this some time ago but forgot until now: Center attacks basically come in two varieties: the annoying one, where the enemy captures the 'dent' in the defense caused by the starting formation, and the lethal one, where the enemy actually gets inside of the defense, or at least a quarter of the zone.

In my experience the difference between the two is the timing of the attack: when the tails of your teammates are still in place when the attack occurs, the attacker is basically confined in the dent of the defense. But if the tails have receded right before the attacker comes in, the attacker can opt to go for the defender who is a slow and easy prey.

So what I thought would be a good idea (only when 2&3 can't grind and 1 can't block), is to have the #1 only cover the right side, see if the enemy center goes for it, and then drives around really slowly. If #4 goes slow as well after split (#2 could do it, but he's supposed to other more important things) all the defender has to do is tightly secure those two tails so the center attacker only gets a tiny amount of space, if he survives at all.

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Post by SageLord »

The defense cannot fully block a center attack if the opponent center player knows what he is doing. He can time it right to get through right when all the tails leave the zone.

This is assuming the defense starts at an outer position. When the defense starts at an outer position and tries to block center, it takes him longer to get around the zone, which leads to the above situation, where the opposing center player gets through...

Of course, if defense starts at position 2 or 3, then they can usually get around fast enough and block center.

And as far as the position 1 and 2 breaking at the exact same time... This is so hard, and almost impossible to not leave a little 'nick' for the opposing center player to grind through.

Ban center attacks! :lol:

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Post by freako »

SageLord wrote: Of course, if defense starts at position 2 or 3, then they can usually get around fast enough and block center.
I think the responsibility lies with the def... (completely based on my own strategy <--- That def should start in 2/3

My strategy (although much don't like it)

pos 2: Defense
-The defense grinds normally , turns back with a deep-grind
-Def starts to def right (closed middle already)

Pos 4:
-makes a normal/deep grind, and turns early
- made sure the left side isnt passed by opponents

Once the tail of the 4 of dissapears, the def is already finished

Advantage: All middle attackers die,

1. On the deep grind of the def
2. On the closed middle, where the opponents center gets kills because there is no space (due to a late turn)

(I'll make a picture to explain it better ----> I suck at explaining it with words :) )
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Post by freako »

freako wrote:
SageLord wrote: Of course, if defense starts at position 2 or 3, then they can usually get around fast enough and block center.
I think the responsibility lies with the def... (completely based on my own strategy <--- That def should start in 2/3

My strategy (although much don't like it)

pos 2: Defense
-The defense grinds normally , turns back with a deep-grind
-Def starts to def right (closed middle already)

Pos 4:
-makes a normal/deep grind, and turns early
- made sure the left side isnt passed by opponents

Once the tail of the 4 of dissapears, the def is already finished

Advantage: All middle attackers die,

1. On the deep grind of the def
2. On the closed middle, where the opponents center gets kills because there is no space (due to a late turn)

(I'll make a picture to explain it better ----> I suck at explaining it with words :) )

Edit: This also gives ur own center the opportunity to Center-attack the opponents team :)


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Post by Lucifer »

I like it when someone kills themself (like a double grinder) early in the grind, leaving a nice hole through all the trails. Then the def can just go through that hole.

Because of that hole, I've considered the idea of giving the def a special "make hole" power.
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Post by madmax »

Lucifer wrote:I like it when someone kills themself (like a double grinder) early in the grind, leaving a nice hole through all the trails. Then the def can just go through that hole.

Because of that hole, I've considered the idea of giving the def a special "make hole" power.
Haha yeah. When you're a sweeper you can do that too if the hole is not very deep inside the zone, it's a good way to "surprise" an attacker already down the path. Sometimes it's also usable on holes caused by bad splits, although those shouldn't (hopefully) happen :)
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Post by Hoax »

The best way to stop an attack is for 2 & 3 to just grind hard; I think double grinding & getting the speed is more important though & middle can be blocked in other ways...this rules out def taking pos 2 though which is a good strategy but doesn't always work if the attack is timed right.

Ultimately though 1 can't do anything if the split isn't correct & def can't do anything if his team keeps dieing at the start.
My defs quite big & usually takes a while to get a full circle at the start so i'm quite exposed at the front; this is solved though by a sweeper just driving past & covering, you'd be suprised at how hard it is to get someone to do that though

It's a team effort but I'd go for #1 & 2/3 as a last but sure resort.

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Post by sinewav »

Hoax wrote:...a good strategy but doesn't always work if the attack is timed right.
True. A well-timed center attack can always disturb a defense. There is very little that can be done without a tight grind and sweepers.

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