Something to think about.

General Stuff about Armagetron, That doesn't belong anywhere else...
Malachi
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Something to think about.

Post by Malachi »

In the beginning, I was in class doing the usual boring work we were given. We were assigned laptops and told to answer questions on a certain educational website. When I awakened the computer from its slumber, I noticed there was a strange motorcyle-like icon at the bottom right of the screen. Out of curiosity I opened the program and was bewildered by it's strange theme. My friends and I would play it constantly during class after figuring out we could play with each other on a variety of servers. This was a BIG deal to us considering the fact that most game websites were blocked on school computers. Yet somehow this game slipped through the cracks of our educational barrier and into our hearts.

At least, I thought it did. I later found out that I was the only one who was truely addicted to it. While my friends played on consoles during afterschool hours I found myself playing this game. My friends saw the game as a fun way to pass the time during classes and nothing more. I saw it as an opportunity to play against interesting players and experience something that I didn't feel playing CoD or any other game on console. There was something about the player base that always made me want to comeback and interact with them. I eventually grew accustomed to this server called "RoadRunnerZ Fasttrack". It was one of the first servers I played on in school and the only one where I felt I could have fun with. I didn't die instantly on the tail and I could reach insane speeds.

I tried playing on other servers such as Fortress and Sumo but the delay during turns dissuaded me from playing, I was way too accustomed to the fast turning of Fasttrack. My skill in Fasttrack progressed and I was invited to the best clan in Fasttrack at that time, known as "afterMath". Our subcommunity grew with the expansion of players and clans. Soon we started tournaments known as Forks (Which was a subtle jab at the most popular tournament in all of tron called Ladle). We created our own forums and assembled a team of all Fasttrack players to play in Ladle. The reason we did this was to reach out to other communities and let the rest of the tronic world know that we existed.

We were inspired to progress the community and help out in anyway we could. A couple of us even decided to learn C++ in an effort to help the developers out. Perhaps it was our ambition that ultimately lead to our downfall. Due to a misunderstanding that was blown way out of proportion, one of us were banned from the forums after an attempt to collaborate with the devs. He was mocked and scrutinized and those of us who came to his defense were labeled sock puppets and not as actual tronners with valid views.

In the end, I continued playing for a bit, but knowing that we weren't going to be able to help push this game to the next level my interest faded. I wanted this game to grow and develop just as ganes like Rocket League. There was infinite potential in this game, we just weren't strong enough to unlock it. Now the one who was banned from the forums, creates mods for another game called Scrap Mechanic and currently has a Youtube channel showcasing said mods. He currently has over 4k subscribers which will most likely continue to grow. It just seems ironic how he was made out to be some sort of cyber-terrorist who wanted to sabotage the forums after the dramatic event that took place when in the end he was a genuine content creator that just wanted to help.

I guess you could say that in the end, it was a lack of trust that core-dumped Armagetron Advanced.
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Z-Man
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Re: Something to think about.

Post by Z-Man »

While I do wish things had went differently, it was him constantly seeking confrontation and upping the abuse ante, both in PM and in public. I can't think of a course of action on our part that would have led to an overall better result. Apart from maybe banning him earlier and taking the heat from that, but that would have required a certain amount of prescience.

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Re: Something to think about.

Post by Monkey »

@Mal

He who shall not be named has a good side and is an intelligent person who has many of the traits required to be a talented Arma developer, including a love for the game. However, he also has a bad side, which I have seen first hand in-game. Of course, everybody has negative traits (except for me, I'm perfect :P). Unfortunately, in my opinion, some of his negative traits are (or at least were) just too much to be considered acceptable. This saddens me because I would have loved to see him work alongside the other devs making this game. I generally get on fine with him these days, not that I see him often, and I'm even a moderator in one of the servers that he administrates. However, there is still the concern in the back of my mind that he could suddenly go off on one, hence I understand the apprehension that the current devs have towards him.

As for these forums, I'd be up for giving him a chance here, not that it's my decision though. One thing I will say is that Swag is more poisonous than Durf ever was and he isn't even permabanned so something isn't quite right.

Finally, as for this game being "core dumped", you aren't correct. Ok, it's in a very quiet period but it's not dead at all. I and others are still playing it; I play both fortress and sumo most nights and I'm not playing by myself, I assure you. There is some development stuff going on, even if it is mostly fixing bugs. I'm confident that 0.4 will, eventually, be released and from there things will improve.
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Word
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Re: Something to think about.

Post by Word »

Malachi wrote:...
Did you post all this just to make us feel sorry for what happened to him? It didn't come without warning and he could have apologized or refrained from threatening the forums - he could have behaved like a decent person. It wasn't a misunderstanding, he was very clear about his intentions and what he thought of everybody else here. And he did use sock puppets (hello, D33P). Besides, he could improve the game anyway if he wanted to. What's stopping him? He still got your group's support and unbanning him here wouldn't really change what has happened and how I or others feel about him. As for his youtube-subscribers, what's that supposed to prove? It's not like he bombarded them with PMs and long-ass posts and they have the same history with him as we do. Good for them. Let me know when he failed to blackmail the devs of Scrap Mechanic.

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Re: Something to think about.

Post by Monkey »

Word wrote:Did you post all this just to make us feel sorry for what happened to him?
No, he posted all this to say this game has died (which it hasn't) because Durf was banned from these forums.
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aP|Nelg
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Re: Something to think about.

Post by aP|Nelg »

Monkey wrote:
Word wrote:Did you post all this just to make us feel sorry for what happened to him?
No, he posted all this to say this game has died (which it hasn't) because [heshallnotbenamedmahahaha] was banned from these forums.
Well, this game may be dying but there are still players who are willing to play and people who are willing to contribute on these forums.

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Lucifer
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Re: Something to think about.

Post by Lucifer »

Monkey wrote: As for these forums, I'd be up for giving him a chance here, not that it's my decision though. One thing I will say is that Swag is more poisonous than Durf ever was and he isn't even permabanned so something isn't quite right.
Actually, a number of Swag's accounts have been permabanned. The ones that haven't been are still allowed access because we can't definitively prove they're Swag, and we don't want collateral damage when we ban people.

The difference between Durf and Swag in this area is that Durf at least has the integrity to stay away and honor his ban.

But I still think it would be hilarious if it turned out that Durf and Swag are the same person. :)
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Re: Something to think about.

Post by Monkey »

Yes, but "littlesteps", swag's most recent and main account has not been permabanned, when really it should have been.

BTW, just in case you were being even a tiny bit serious, Durf is not Swag :) .
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Lucifer
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Re: Something to think about.

Post by Lucifer »

Monkey wrote:Yes, but "littlesteps", swag's most recent and main account has not been permabanned, when really it should have been.

BTW, just in case you were being even a tiny bit serious, Durf is not Swag :) .
Didn't Z-Man ban him sometime in the last couple of weeks? I seem to recall seeing him say that he had....
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Re: Something to think about.

Post by Monkey »

Yes, but only for a month.
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Z-Man
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Re: Something to think about.

Post by Z-Man »

Well, two things about that. Unless they make a new account or switch to an alt directly to evade a ban, I tend to view alt accounts separately. That's both for practical reasons (not always possible to identify them with enough certainty for bans) and because the multi-accounters view their accounts often as separate entities as well, one for making trouble, one for playing nice. Bans and other moderation tools aren't there for punishment, they're to keep the forums clean and usable for everyone, and removing the troublemaking accounts is enough. And compared to his previous accounts that I know of, LittleSteps is an angel. The others were straight up UGABUGAWUGAINYOURFACE obnoxious spammers.
Secondly, forum bans are, with very rare exceptions, for forum activity only. There is little point in banning someone from the forums for something done on the grid, it's not like that prevents them from continuing whatever they're doing. Also, again, there's the identifying problem in general; especially, I suspect the other trolls like to impersonate Swag in game from time to time.

Well, the recent trouble I read about here would be bot usage. Dunno how bad that is, I haven't seen it in action. But that would definitely be LittleSteps' work. The other trolls, AFAIK, don't code.

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Light
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Re: Something to think about.

Post by Light »

Z-Man wrote:Well, the recent trouble I read about here would be bot usage. Dunno how bad that is, I haven't seen it in action. But that would definitely be LittleSteps' work. The other trolls, AFAIK, don't code.
I think he made it available to others, so it wouldn't really matter if they could code or not. Not sure, but I thought he was making a site for it to be able to be downloaded. Either way, the vars are quite easy to change in the code, so it was bound to happen. OS games are always gonna have this downfall I'd assume. :( Not even sure of a good way to detect it server-side in this game since it doesn't really go outside of normal physics or anything.

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Re: Something to think about.

Post by Monkey »

Z-Man wrote:forum bans are, with very rare exceptions, for forum activity only.
In my opinion, the littlesteps account should have been permabanned for his behaviour on these forums alone. You even said yourself that his behaviour warranted a permaban had it been aimed at anyone other than you. Well, it shouldn't be that way. If someone stabbed you to death, you would expect them to get full punishment for murder, not some reduced punishment because it's only you they've killed. In my opinion, what littlesteps said was totally unacceptable and he should not be allowed back, period.
Z-Man wrote:Bans and other moderation tools aren't there for punishment, they're to keep the forums clean and usable for everyone
If bans aren't punishments/deterrents then what are they? Punishments/deterrents are needed because, without them, people will push the boundaries beyond what is acceptable, just as they often are doing here. When littlesteps comes back, how long will these forums be "clean and usable" for? We'll find out soon enough, probably to the detriment of some other victim.

I do appreciate the fact that you moderate these forums and I appreciate that you'd probably rather be doing other, more constructive things instead of moderating. However, I do feel I need to point out that people like swag won't change and should be removed the first time they behave in a terrible manner. I'm sorry to inform you that he's not a good guy deep down; not everyone is.
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Light
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Re: Something to think about.

Post by Light »

Monkey wrote:If bans aren't punishments/deterrents then what are they?
Control over whatever situations may arise. If you ban someone, they can pop up a new account through one of the tons of proxies available, and it would take you so much time to block them all. There's nothing here that makes people want to keep their accounts, unless you've actually gotten to a point where your name is important to you. For people that have created account after account, it's not much of a punishment to make a new one.

I would also say he got what he deserved, or maybe a bit more. I would normally expect a warning or maybe like a week ban for something like that, though there's no warning system here so .. I guess temp ban is about all you can do to get a point across. At least, I don't think there's a warning system in place here ..

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Re: Something to think about.

Post by Monkey »

Light wrote:If you ban someone, they can pop up a new account through one of the tons of proxies available,
I believe that now, on these forums, the first X number of posts from new accounts have to be approved by a moderator. That should keep most clowns at bay.
Light wrote:I would also say he got what he deserved, or maybe a bit more. I would normally expect a warning or maybe like a week ban for something like that
Are you for real man? He told Z-Man, amongst other things, that he should kill himself. Yes, let's give him a warning; just a slap on the wrist will do. Maybe we should have a whip round and buy him some counselling while we're at it; poor swaggy must have had a tough life.
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