~Misc Stuff~ Decision Overturn

General Stuff about Armagetron, That doesn't belong anywhere else...
|Phantom~Rider|
On Lightcycle Grid
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:20 pm
Location: Washington, D.C.

~Misc Stuff~ Decision Overturn

Post by |Phantom~Rider| »

Durf wrote: Just going to say something about each point:

* You appear to be unwilling to leave Lucifer and Z-man alone, and
unwilling to wait for there to be a better moderation framework in
place.
This is a lie, how can I not be leaving them alone for consecutively banning me when no rules were broken? They were unwilling to leave me alone.

* The only time you've actually apologized for anything wasn't until you
were actually banned. Example: even if your "threat" was a
mis-understanding, you could have apologized for that mis-understanding.
I have not apologized, even after my ban(s). The misunderstanding was not my fault. If I say something and someone goes out of their way to think it's a threat when it is not, that isn't my problem. Nor should I have to be sorry for being banned because of that mistake someone else did. The fact he wants me to apologize for anything shows how he is afraid of losing moral superiority (when he never had it).

* You argued that utilizing an exploit was legal. This did not give me a
nice feeling, as it felt like justifying an action.
I didn't argue that using an exploit was legal, I argued that an exploit is not "hacking" by its definition (though today many people throw the word around for things that aren't hacking). All I said was that if he was going to try to charge someone for hacking when they didn't, the court would just laugh at him for not updating his own security. It's like going into court and saying "they guess my password was 'password'" and expecting them to believe you were "hacked" into. The justification of an action pertains to his assumption that I had made any threat (i.e. it's only because he went out of his way to assume I made a threat that when I talk about using an exploit not "hacking", he thinks that's me saying "it's right to use and exploit", which only came up in conversation to address his hacking threat accusations).

* Your legal threat effectively forced me to take action to prevent
cyber-bullying. The most effective way to prevent it in your case was to
remove you from the forums.
My legal "threat" was a statement that if I were to take this type of thing to a courtroom, the court would side with me because of "cyber-bullying" actually being something you can go to jail for nowadays. It had little to do with the conversation but he's using it to feed his delusions about my "threat(s)". But you can see for yourself, Tank Program thinks that the best way to prevent cyber-bullying is to remove the victim, and prevent them from being able to use the service that's meant for everyone.

* You've been causing a lot of tension on the forums for quite a while
now which I feel has been detrimental all around. Overall, you're being
more trouble than help.
Tension? I've been standing up to the moderator abuse and hypocrisy, and for good reason. Hell yes it will get tense, and I think this community has the maturity to handle it when some change it needed. Overall, I was being more trouble to his control freak complex because I would blatantly point out their abuse of the community they claim to care about. People don't have to accept this behavior simply because they are the developers (who appointed themselves as moderators even though there might be actual and willing tronners who are better suited. its their pride.)

* A lot of your e-mails, posts, and PMs are browbeating. That is to say,
since you're so fond of "abuse", that's what your communications are
starting to feel like.
I speak condescendingly to people I consider lower than myself. I know that I do not abuse other people when I have a responsibility towards them (e.g. when I'm an admin, I enforce a policy that ensures a fair environment for everyone, not my "friends", and if any admin abuses under my watch, they are never admin again). So yes they are "browbeating" when presented with the truth of the matter than Tank doesn't give two shits about the people in the community; seems to him they are expendable worshipers with which he is free to abuse and harass at will in an unfair and biased environment. Many tronners cannot use the forums because of the unyeilding prejudice in that sect of the tron community. But more than half of my posts on the forums talk about the need for people to start showing more acceptance of each other and stop harassing or mistreating over stupid personal reasons (problems).
There is a difference between pwning someone with logic and exposing their bullshit, and abuse / browbeating. Just because it's painful to his ego doesn't make it "abuse".

* You don't know when to let go.
this was told to me after I was accused of threatening to hack the forums and abused by moderators. I simply maintain the position that I never made any such threat, and simply because I speak for myself, "I don't know when to let go". They have always wanted me to simply accept their accusations and allow the community to think I made a threat. I never did, and I will always say that because I didn't. It's easy to prove as well, but hard when there's that bias shouting overtop (<insert accusation here><if you say anything it means you cant let it go><if you cant let it go you get banned>) the pattern that was used to create the unfair bias.

* You were eating into my work time.
this should be self explanatory...How is that my responsibility? If I'm posting in reply to his accusations, how is it MY reposibility that he has to spend the extra time trying to orchestrate a story for how his accusations can compete with facts. Or simply, why is it my responsibilty to manage his work schedule? I'm blamed for everything wrong that happened in the forums so that he could rally more people to agree to banning me (unjustly - simply because "the majority" wants me gone, then its "legal". He never made a poll, he never asked anyone.)


Keep in mind that these are partial reasons for banning me permanently. His responsibilities, are the reasons why I'm banned. His assumptions are the reasons why I'm banned. His pride is the reason why I'm banned. I simply asked for a fair environment, and for people to hear me out when I say I didn't make any threat. But the possibility of the community realizing that they would have made that accusation simply to orchestrate a reason for the public to rally together to accept my ban, well, it would be too revealing about their intentions and how they use (abuse) the community for their own deluded concept of admiration. Realizing how they lie and manipulate would invalidate their ability to "rule" the community (but moderators shouldn't "rule" should they? A developer of a game is in service to the community; the community is what makes a game successful, not the developer.)


Now consider that he said it gives him time to put better rules in place...it's been over a year now? Still banned, and no new rules. He talks out of his ass just to get what he wants.
Also: Don't ban me either, because that would send a strong message to the community! :moustache:
Attachments
Exhibit A
Exhibit A
User avatar
Light
Reverse Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 1667
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:11 pm

Re: ~Misc Stuff~ Decision Overturn

Post by Light »

Not sure I really see the point of this anymore. The people running the forums clearly stated what they don't want here, and if he comes back, he's basically said he wants to continue doing what he was. After a year, we've gotten nowhere, because nothing has changed. Doesn't seem like it would be realistic to hope for it to change at this point, so there's no real benefit of bringing the same topic up over and over.

If you actually expect to get somewhere, you should just talk privately with Tank rather than trying to start something in the forums again. That's going to do nothing but harm your goal. Also, I'm pretty sure Tank is sick enough of it that he won't bother anymore, but that's just a guess. If I were him, I would be.
|Phantom~Rider|
On Lightcycle Grid
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:20 pm
Location: Washington, D.C.

Re: ~Misc Stuff~ Decision Overturn

Post by |Phantom~Rider| »

Thanks for your input Kira; I agree with you,
Light wrote:After a year, we've gotten nowhere, because nothing has changed.
In part, I attribute this lack of progress to the lack of presence. Z-Man is by far the most active (by presence) form authority, yet he lacks consistency
in his appearance, coming once a month during the ladles (From what I've observed)

In reality though, and as I see it, Durf isn't my central point of conversation. I wish to shed light on a pertaining issue. Much like Kira said, it has been a year, and even more without change.

I'd like to bring up something that Kyle said once, yet resonates clearly again,
kyle wrote: ban's create more hate and an overall decline in the once positive community ... don't just ban because you differ, find the middle ground. sure you cannot agree on everything

Tank Program wrote: All of this added up that I felt (and still feel) a practicality resolution can't be achieved, so a ban. It buys me time to at least put better rules in place.
It's been a year as Kira pointed out sans a meaningful change. I'm not trying to start drama, I only intend to right a wrong, amend flaws and disband wrongs, and establish order and discipline rather than leave an issue unfix and that could potentially cause more chaos. It clearly hasn't been fixed. There is a lack of transparency from the devs and the players, and their absence doesn't alleviate anything.

My Proposal:

To start talking about how the community (not the devs) can fix this problem, and get the community involved in agreeing on what everyone thinks is most fair. Thus far, it seems like
/dev/null wrote: You are admins, abuse is not possible. Its your forums, **** th[ei]r cries.
holds true
but the community in turn should have to power to make decisions like this. I acknowledge that the community can succumb to the mere mindset of:
"it's their website, they make the rules" which comes right down to, "they can be jerks if they want, unfair, biased, unreasonable, etc.. it's their corner of the internet and they are the kings of it." So you may find that the people (who are still remain) simply accept the fact that on occasion things will be unfair. But I urge you, in order to prompt change, start by:

1) Reversing the unnecessary ban of Durf
2) Start drafting a set of rules to prevent things of similar like and magnitude to ever happen
3) Push for transparency between the devs and the player community
User avatar
Ratchet
Match Winner
Posts: 779
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:55 am

Re: ~Misc Stuff~ Decision Overturn

Post by Ratchet »

|Phantom~Rider| wrote:1) Reversing the unnecessary ban of Durf
2) Start drafting a set of rules to prevent things of similar like and magnitude to ever happen
3) Push for transparency between the devs and the player community
1) Sure, maybe it was unnecessary. He was being quite annoying, though, and it was the easiest solution at the time. I don't think he should be banned indefinitely. However, it is extremely puzzling that his stance has not changed one bit over the last year. It seems like he would have softened up to at least the possibility of being wrong... I guess not

2) So, rules aren't even the problem. If these forums had a rule that stated "any threats or attempts to harm the forums/associated websites in any way, shape, or form will result in an indefinite ban," Durf would have still been "wrongly banned" after making his threat. According to him, his blatant threat isn't a threat. Five thousand words and attempts to use particular words to form a loophole, we'd still be in the same situation. No rules can be all-encompassing. The best rules are "use your common sense" but the real problem is that some people simply don't have that.

3) I think it's pretty transparent. The only thing they could do differently is be more active and involved. But, they're busy.
Image
"Dream as if you'll live forever,
Live as if you'll die today." -James Dean
User avatar
Lucifer
Project Developer
Posts: 8640
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:32 pm
Location: Republic of Texas
Contact:

Re: ~Misc Stuff~ Decision Overturn

Post by Lucifer »

|Phantom~Rider| wrote:Thanks for your input Kira; I agree with you,
Light wrote:After a year, we've gotten nowhere, because nothing has changed.
In part, I attribute this lack of progress to the lack of presence. Z-Man is by far the most active (by presence) form authority, yet he lacks consistency
in his appearance, coming once a month during the ladles (From what I've observed)
I check these forums almost every day. The fact that you don't see me posting is because I've had nothing to say on most of the threads I've seen. Nevertheless (my wife loves that word), the other stuff you don't see are the posts that are getting moderated. See, in reference to the "things haven't changed in a year", we actually have some more moderator tools. For instance, you have to make 10 posts that have to be approved by moderators before you can post freely. That's why you're not seeing the spammers much, if at all, anymore, because I'm seeing them and denying the posts. I pushed myself to a daily check when that new rule went into effect to make sure that legitimate posts would get through as quickly as possible.

As far as changes to allow Durf back, I still want to be able to mark a user as having to have posts approved again before they can post freely, and something in place so that if Durf starts using PMs to harass people again, we can stop him easily without a ban (we may have that, but I haven't found anything in the UI for it).
My Proposal:
1) Reversing the unnecessary ban of Durf
2) Start drafting a set of rules to prevent things of similar like and magnitude to ever happen
3) Push for transparency between the devs and the player community
You're not getting anywhere with anybody as long as you insist the ban was unnecessary. A proposal of this sort needs to have personal opinions removed and must be based on facts, and facts alone. If you feel like you need to inject your feelings/opinions into a discussion, you must explicitly state that they are, in fact, your feelings and/or opinions. Composition 101, really.

So, basically, if we don't have the tools to curb Durf's inevitable excesses (other than banning, which obviously would kick off another unnecessary shitstorm), then I'm not willing to allow him back. So if it were to come to a triumvirate vote, you're already down by one.

Edit: For anybody wondering why I haven't been in irc, it's because my irc client randomly broke and won't connect to it's core anymore, let alone freenode. I'm sure whenever I get around to upgrading my OS it'll get fixed.
Image

Be the devil's own, Lucifer's my name.
- Iron Maiden
Monkey
Match Winner
Posts: 759
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 12:36 am
Location: England, UK

Re: ~Misc Stuff~ Decision Overturn

Post by Monkey »

Woah man, so much writing it hurts my head...again. I know that my vote doesn't offically count but I'd like to give my opinion anyway, for those who care:

Positives:
Durf is certainly passionate about the game and has the potential to contribute a lot to it. He can talk rationally and sensibly when he wants to (I've seen this in-game).

Negatives:
He has, or at the very least had, a nasty streak that I've seen first hand (again, in-game). Also, he can write *far* too much crap.

So, IMO, if he's managed to change the negative behaviours, then great, unban him. Otherwise, I can't cope with him being here.

Oh, BTW, I would like to thank the devs for the work that we both see and don't see them doing.
Playing since December 2006
User avatar
aP|Nelg
Match Winner
Posts: 621
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:22 pm
Contact:

Re: ~Misc Stuff~ Decision Overturn

Post by aP|Nelg »

This is being brought up again; sure says something...
User avatar
Light
Reverse Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 1667
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:11 pm

Re: ~Misc Stuff~ Decision Overturn

Post by Light »

|Phantom~Rider| wrote:Thanks for your input Kira; I agree with you,
Light wrote:After a year, we've gotten nowhere, because nothing has changed.
In part, I attribute this lack of progress to the lack of presence. Z-Man is by far the most active (by presence) form authority, yet he lacks consistency
in his appearance, coming once a month during the ladles (From what I've observed)

In reality though, and as I see it, Durf isn't my central point of conversation. I wish to shed light on a pertaining issue. Much like Kira said, it has been a year, and even more without change.

I'd like to bring up something that Kyle said once, yet resonates clearly again,
kyle wrote: ban's create more hate and an overall decline in the once positive community ... don't just ban because you differ, find the middle ground. sure you cannot agree on everything
I think you've misunderstood what I'm talking about not having been changed. The opinions that cause the differences between everyone have not changed for either party. We can also use what Kyle wrote to explain a little, and that's that there will not be middle ground they can agree on. From what I've heard from Durf in private chats, he is very much still in the mindset of trying to argue changes and things he sees wrong with moderation here, which is what we had so many months of arguing already and without them being able to move past it, it's going to keep being a problem.
Lucifer wrote: I check these forums almost every day. The fact that you don't see me posting is because I've had nothing to say on most of the threads I've seen. Nevertheless (my wife loves that word), the other stuff you don't see are the posts that are getting moderated. See, in reference to the "things haven't changed in a year", we actually have some more moderator tools. For instance, you have to make 10 posts that have to be approved by moderators before you can post freely. That's why you're not seeing the spammers much, if at all, anymore, because I'm seeing them and denying the posts. I pushed myself to a daily check when that new rule went into effect to make sure that legitimate posts would get through as quickly as possible.
And it has been very nice not having all the spam. Since I get all the messages sent to my phone, I noticed all of them random, long ass posts for the dumbest things .. I'm not sure what kind of advertising that is, but it doesn't seem like it would be very effective.
Lucifer wrote:As far as changes to allow Durf back, I still want to be able to mark a user as having to have posts approved again before they can post freely, and something in place so that if Durf starts using PMs to harass people again, we can stop him easily without a ban (we may have that, but I haven't found anything in the UI for it).
There should be an option to change a single user's permissions, and disallow private messages. If not, you could create a special group, cloned from regular members, that doesn't allow PM's. It's been a long time since I've even looked at phpBB, but I'm pretty sure it's possible without any plugins, given you have access to change user and group permissions.

On a side note. If you need any help weeding through the pending posts, I'd be happy to help. I have noticed some of them in the competitions forum, but not wanting to step where I shouldn't.
User avatar
aP|Nelg
Match Winner
Posts: 621
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:22 pm
Contact:

Re: ~Misc Stuff~ Decision Overturn

Post by aP|Nelg »

Light wrote:And it has been very nice not having all the spam. Since I get all the messages sent to my phone, I noticed all of them random, long ass posts for the dumbest things .. I'm not sure what kind of advertising that is, but it doesn't seem like it would be very effective.
You can probably unsubscribe to that :P

As for the topic at hand, yes I do think Durf should be unbanned. He can provide stuff for the community.
|Phantom~Rider|
On Lightcycle Grid
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:20 pm
Location: Washington, D.C.

Re: ~Misc Stuff~ Decision Overturn

Post by |Phantom~Rider| »

Light wrote:The opinions that cause the differences between everyone have not changed for either party. We can also use what Kyle wrote to explain a little, and that's that there will not be middle ground they can agree on. From what I've heard from Durf in private chats, he is very much still in the mindset of trying to argue changes and things he sees wrong with moderation here, which is what we had so many months of arguing already and without them being able to move past it, it's going to keep being a problem.
The feud between the devs and Durf isn't the important part, and is apart from my point. I suggest a communal resolution, where the community decides because currently, Tank ¿ and other devs took the decision to ban Durf and it's just like monkey said,
Monkey wrote: I know that my vote doesn't offically count
and that's the issue! A general trend I seem to be picking up is that the community doesn't believe in his indefinite ban, and some are willing to have it reversed,
Lucifer wrote: I check these forums almost every day. The fact that you don't see me posting is because I've had nothing to say on most of the threads I've seen. Nevertheless (my wife loves that word), the other stuff you don't see are the posts that are getting moderated. See, in reference to the "things haven't changed in a year", we actually have some more moderator tools.
Ratchet wrote: I think it's pretty transparent. The only thing they could do differently is be more active and involved. But, they're busy.


I acknowledge that you're all busy and have an abundance of task to complete daily, but if they write hebdomadal posts checking in, or once every fortnight, regardless of the amount of progress made, or lack thereof, anything is better than nothing
Lucifer wrote: You're not getting anywhere with anybody as long as you insist the ban was unnecessary.
I don't think it was unnecessary, I just don't believe it was the most appropriate approach, especially seeing as how Tank ended his email

Tank Program wrote: So yes, I want you gone
I think that says something, and I'll just sit here and await his response (or his justification) :done:
aP|Nelg wrote:This is being brought up again; sure says something...
What are you alluding to?
Lucifer wrote: So if it were to come to a triumvirate vote, you're already down by one.
Hah. You're curtailing the basis of my argument. If I truly believed in empowering three triumvir, I wouldn't have posted in the first place.
Lucifer wrote: A proposal of this sort needs to have personal opinions removed and must be based on facts, and facts alone. If you feel like you need to inject your feelings/opinions into a discussion, you must explicitly state that they are, in fact, your feelings and/or opinions. Composition 101, really.
Ditto
Lucifer wrote: then I'm not willing to allow him back. So if it were to come to a triumvirate vote, you're already down by one.
Monkey wrote: Oh, BTW, I would like to thank the devs for the work that we both see and don't see them doing.

Wouldn't you like to thank them for everything they've done and be able to see it?¿?¿? :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:
|Phantom~Rider| wrote: I acknowledge that you're all busy and have an abundance of task to complete daily, but if they write hebdomadal posts checking in, or once every fortnight, regardless of the amount of progress made, or lack thereof, anything is better than nothing
aP|Nelg wrote: He -c-a-n- has/does provide stuff for the community.
User avatar
sinewav
Graphic Artist
Posts: 6413
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:37 am
Contact:

Re: ~Misc Stuff~ Decision Overturn

Post by sinewav »

aP|Nelg wrote:As for the topic at hand, yes I do think Durf should be unbanned. He can provide stuff for the community.
If he wants to provide for the community, then he should just do it. His being banned here is irrelevant to his ability to contribute.

You're a little late to the party, but back in the day lagtest.net was a major contributor to the Armagetron ecosystem. They had major differences with this forum, had issues with troublemakers in the community, and were frustrated with the state of development... so they forked the game. For a brief period of time it cut the number of Arma players nearly in half and killed a few popular tournaments. They had grand ideas, good ideas, but unforunately their own mismanagement caused the project to fail. My point?

If Durf and his fans can make a truly better experience, then fork off or fvck off. Some of us are quite satisfied with the peace and quiet here. Now, I'm sure one of your responses might be "why should Durf contribute to a community when he's banned from the forums?" To which I ask, "is his ego so fragile that he needs recognition?" All my contributions to this community are primarily done out of my own curiosity. If I want to make something for Arma, I just do it. I don't care if anyone likes it, because I like it.

I'm not about to stroke the ego of someone who has been a consistent nuisance, regardless of his alleged abilities. Also, this is not a democracy. This is open-source software and it has lead developers. Follow the lead, or take the code and go elsewhere.
|Phantom~Rider|
On Lightcycle Grid
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:20 pm
Location: Washington, D.C.

Re: ~Misc Stuff~ Decision Overturn

Post by |Phantom~Rider| »

sinewav wrote: Follow the lead, or take the code and go elsewhere
It's this mindset that doesn't allow the game grow. With growth comes inevitable change, and the question is which change are you willing to make and is it for the best impact or does your decision stem from the egocentric mindset you possess. You take the community for granted, but you must realize that just because you place yourself above others and don't have any issues currently, it is because you have a 'higher' position speaking hierarchically. Your hubris will be your demise if you always take it for granted, just saying. It will trickle down into the game and you'll be the epitome of why Tron died or is lying in a hospital bed hooked up to a life machine
|Phantom~Rider|
On Lightcycle Grid
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:20 pm
Location: Washington, D.C.

Re: ~Misc Stuff~ Decision Overturn

Post by |Phantom~Rider| »

sinewav wrote: Follow the lead, or take the code and go elsewhere
Follow the lead, or take the PROGRESSIVE IDEAS and go elsewhere
Last edited by |Phantom~Rider| on Thu May 19, 2016 4:59 am, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
aP|Nelg
Match Winner
Posts: 621
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:22 pm
Contact:

Re: ~Misc Stuff~ Decision Overturn

Post by aP|Nelg »

|Phantom~Rider| wrote:
aP|Nelg wrote:This is being brought up again; sure says something...
What are you alluding to?
The thing, is other people (ex. /dev/null) have been banned from this forums and they don't get topics randomly thrown.I think the problem here is that durf is not a troll like the other bans. Durf being banned has obviously thrown a lot more fuss than previous bans.

sinewav: 'YOU MUST RESPECT MY OPINION OR ELSE'
User avatar
Lucifer
Project Developer
Posts: 8640
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:32 pm
Location: Republic of Texas
Contact:

Re: ~Misc Stuff~ Decision Overturn

Post by Lucifer »

|Phantom~Rider| wrote:
sinewav wrote: Follow the lead, or take the code and go elsewhere
It's this mindset that doesn't allow the game grow. With growth comes inevitable change, and the question is which change are you willing to make and is it for the best impact or does your decision stem from the egocentric mindset you possess. You take the community for granted, but you must realize that just because you place yourself above others and don't have any issues currently, it is because you have a 'higher' position speaking hierarchically. Your hubris will be your demise if you always take it for granted, just saying. It will trickle down into the game and you'll be the epitome of why Tron died or is lying in a hospital bed hooked up to a life machine
Here's a quick history lesson: Armagetron Advanced started as a fork of Armagetron, made during a period when Z-man was nowhere to be found and people wanted to see improvements. It didn't become the "official" project until Z-man showed up again randomly and blessed it.

If you consider past events, then I think the only logical conclusion to draw is that if Durf makes a successful fork, he can reasonably expect to have it blessed as the "official" project. Note the importance of it being a successful fork, which inarguably in 2004, Armagetron Advanced was a successful fork.

So, again with the hierarchy baloney. Look, if Durf really wants to add his own stuff to the game after he has repeatedly rejected having a project liason/mentor to work with, he's got the code. He can do whatever he wants with it, except change the license. That is the only thing he can't do. If we wants to add pink ponies dancing on the rim walls, he can do that. He doesn't need access to these forums, nor does he need anybody's permission to do whatever he wants with it. Even better, one of the reasons we switched to bzr when we did was to make it easier for people to maintain forks. In fact, as a direct result of that, the sty+ct+ap branch, maintained by Kyle, has been able to send back patches that fix things he found were problems. It will, at some point (when Kyle finds the time), become a vector by which many of the stuff added to that branch can get put into 0.4.

I don't get what you're after here, to be honest. The best way to change the hierarchy you find so revolting is to make a successful fork, complete with your own forums and everything. And the only thing stopping Durf from doing that is Durf. Not me, not Z-man, not sinewav. If you really want to be a threat to us, make a better game, and release it before we finally release out next version. Get to work! Get to it!

On a side note, the last failed fork failed because of one reason, near as I can tell: they intentionally and unnecessarily broke network compatibility, forcing players to choose between one or the other. I get that there was mismanagement (and I had something of a third-row seat to the dissolution of the development team), and that probably would have flunked the project anyway, but forcing players to choose and declare their loyalties was the worst PR move they could have made.

Edit: As an olive branch offering from me, if Durf creates his own forums (or if he already has them), I'll be happy to go register an account, dump 20,000 words accusing him of being a douchebag, and let him permanently ban me in peace.
Image

Be the devil's own, Lucifer's my name.
- Iron Maiden
Post Reply