The Community is You!!!

[TaZ]

Not everyone has to be in a constant protective bubble. This is why I say you need empowerment. You are hurt by these comments.

There is a lot of assumptions in these words. The thing with assumptions is that they may not be true. In particular sentences starting with 'You are' are a bit dangerous. The people to whom they are directed may well know much better what they are than you do. Actually, that would be the default assumption.

Not an assumption at all.

Agreed, chrisd. Thanks for the necessary reminder. It felt like I was cyberbullied last night, and it was very, very unpleasant. I am sharing this to highlight how relevant chrisd's message is. I was having an already unpleasant conversation with Durf, who accused me among other things of bringing Pressure's behavior upon myself, when Pressure entered the server just to attack me, again. Another troll entered and spectated, and contributed insults occasionally. It was altogether very damaging.

Has it ever occurred to you that people may care about the quality of the community because they want to instead of because they need anything?

Not exactly sure why you question that. I've never stated that.

I don't think anyone is upset that you have a problem with sexism and trolling on the grid.

Upset probably isn't the right word, however, it seems to me that most of the trolls/idiots/assholes are panicking now that measures are being discussed and implemented to reduce their potency on the grid.

If you feel anyone you identify as a "troll/idiot/asshole" on this specific thread is panicking, you may be out of touch with the tron community.

[Jonathan]

There's a big difference between swearing at someone and discrimination.
I'd say calling you a *** is discriminating, not just swearing at you.

Convict, you are not reading my messages very well. I stated before that rookie was NOT calling me a f.a.g. but some other person, I forgot who it was. Calling somebody a *** when you know they are gay is discrimination, yes. Calling some person who is probably not gay a *** is not really discrimination. Unfortunately, it is extremely common among kids to do this. This is unfortunate because the gay kids who are still in the closet and go to the same school hear these comments and it can really get to them even if it is not directed at them. But saying f.a.g. is so common that it is quite understandable that it flies out of somebodies mouth without thinking. This is how I interpret what rookie said. Also, for the gay kids who may be present it is really very helpful if somebody says that this throwing around of f.a.g.g.o.t. is not good even if it does not actually stop it because it shows them that there are people who care and are on their side. Also, a common thing that happens is that the gay kid after some years musters the courage to come out to his friends who have been uttering 'f.a.g.' for years basically at everybody and everything they don't like and the first thing out of the mouth of these f.a.g. uttering friends is 'ow man, we did not know and are so sorry about what we have been saying all the time'. In such a case clearly the saying of f.a.g. has done some damage but it was not intentional and in fact the heart of kids involved was in the right place even if they were not thinking their actions through.

I beg to differ on one point. It's not about gay people finding out someone has been using that word. Why would anyone use that word in the first place, knowing exactly what it means and what they're telling everybody when they use it? The implication is that the targeted person is homosexual (which may or may not actually be the case) and that that's a bad thing. There is no need for that, ever. If they don't mean it, blurting it out indiscriminately is a habit they're going to have to kick. We should strive to increase awareness so these 'accidents' can be avoided, whether or not you think they can presently be excused.

[sinewav]

It is going to be a busy week for me and I've said all I need to for now, though I would like to express one last thought: I think it is time to summon the Leviathan (obscure reference).

I have at least four ideas for improving the community. One of them is not currently in line with Arma's philosophy. Two of them are, one likely more effective than the other. The last isn't clear. However, there is still one issue that I don't have a solution for that undermines all of them (no, it's not "trolls will always exist"). I will be talking these ideas through with select individuals over the next few weeks.

No system will be perfect, but systems can be effective. Whatever comes out of this won't fix things overnight, but over the course of many months to years. It's the slow game, and I'm really good at playing it.

[[Anonymous]]

If we had less trolls we'd have more players.

[Monkey]

@Z-Man
Ok, fair enough. By the way, unless I'm mistaken, Tweezy is Twee, not Rookie.

If you feel anyone you identify as a "troll/idiot/asshole" on this specific thread is panicking, you may be out of touch with the tron community.

I was mainly referring to behaviour on the grid (although not entirely) and I know perfectly well what's going on in the tron community.

You, Sinewav, and Monkey believe that moderation and banning is the key to stop this behavior. Well, it's not. It goes much further than that. If this thread brought in more realistic solutions that weren't shot down by the politically correct crowd, maybe we would see some realistic type of advancement. Kyle brought up great points that lead to a more realistic and lasting solution.

The truth is that you fear the moderation will work as planned and you don't want it to go ahead so you try to convince people that Kyle's fix 'em method is the way to go.

[Ratchet]

I realize that my contribution to the overall discussion is going to be relatively small, but:

Personally, when I played tron all day every day, I never really experienced an overwhelming amount of trolling and/or sexism. I seriously believe all of you, including nara and sinewav, have pretty much blown this out of proportion.

Yes, I get it, it happens on the internet. In a perfect world, it wouldn't. But, you guys seem to lose sight of the fact that when you play a video game online you are very de-humanized. There is nothing you can do about it short of moving to North Korea. There, you won't have to worry about getting insulted over the internet.

If you can't play the game without being too incapacitated to ignore the simple-minded insults, turn off your computer and go read a book.

It seems like this community has gone stale and is now looking for random shit to keep the bickering alive. Talk about something useful, like why socialism still exists and how no monumental advancements have been made in terms of government. Argue about how 250 years ago we declared that humans have inalienable rights and now, in 2015, we are deciding that people shouldn't be able to own guns and becoming a citizen of the amazing United States of America should be damn near impossible unless you are already here. Oh, and **** the Native Americans. We were here first.

[Ratchet]

You, Sinewav, and Monkey believe that moderation and banning is the key to stop this behavior. Well, it's not. It goes much further than that. If this thread brought in more realistic solutions that weren't shot down by the politically correct crowd, maybe we would see some realistic type of advancement. Kyle brought up great points that lead to a more realistic and lasting solution.

The truth is that you fear the moderation will work as planned and you don't want it to go ahead so you try to convince people that Kyle's fix 'em method is the way to go.

Actually, I generally think Taz is a moron. But, he is exactly correct in this context (in my opinion). It demonstrates why the world is turning into a shitty place to be a part of. It is also why an overwhelming amount of people support Donald Trump. The dude has common sense and isn't afraid to tell the idiots that they're idiots. It's pretty admirable, to be honest. I'd vote for the guy myself if I was okay with the idea of World War III.

[sinewav]

Ratchet, thank you for your input. Again, if I may continue to repeat this point over and over again, the issue here is not the generic brand of simple-minded insults, but when online behavior devolves into cyber-bullying (a real phenomenon). We all dish out insults occasionally. That's not the focus of this topic.

Kyle's idea has merit, in some instances but not others. There are some people in this game where such an approach would work, and other people where the only action is strict moderation. And since we have no moderation at all, it would be beneficial to experiment with both. However, none of these people against moderation, if they even admit there is a problem, have offered any suggestion on how to implement Kyle's approach. Would you like to be the first?

As for the rest of your post, I'm sorry you are so cynical at such a young age. As an old man I can assure you the world is not how you currently see it. If you get a chance, read this book* and it will change your life. Be warned, it's an 800+ page beast of scientific research and not for the faint of heart. I read it. It was a rough couple days, but luckily I was out in the desert with a lot of free time.


* I happen to have an electronic copy you can "borrow."

[TaZ]

You, Sinewav, and Monkey believe that moderation and banning is the key to stop this behavior. Well, it's not. It goes much further than that. If this thread brought in more realistic solutions that weren't shot down by the politically correct crowd, maybe we would see some realistic type of advancement. Kyle brought up great points that lead to a more realistic and lasting solution.

The truth is that you fear the moderation will work as planned and you don't want it to go ahead so you try to convince people that Kyle's fix 'em method is the way to go.

Why would I fear this?

[Monkey]

Why would I fear this?

Because, in my opinion, you are, at best, a borderline troll/idiot/asshole. Having the community in the current state it's in, behaviourwise, suits you down to the ground.

Personally, when I played tron all day every day, I never really experienced an overwhelming amount of trolling and/or sexism.

I'm not sure when the last time you played all day every day was but the community has become quite a lot worse over time and will probably get even worse still if we do nothing about it. I play the game a lot and have seen a considerable change. As far as sexism goes, I think we need to listen to the females in this game to tell us how bad things really are. I mean, even Liz, who is very thick-skinned, is telling us about sexism that happens on the grid (Of course, she won't want the strict moderation because then she can't behave how she has been doing).

It seems like this community has gone stale and is now looking for random shit to keep the bickering alive.

This is not random shit, there is some actual cyberbullying going on, I've seen it myself.
If the community has become stale, it's largely because the trolls/idiots/assholes are putting people off the game. Like I said, I play the game a lot and I see new people trying it out all the time. These new people are treated badly and they don't come back. I'm sure there are some people that just don't like the game itself but, from what I've seen, that is mostly not the case.

Correct moderation is a very powerful tool and should help to improve both the quality and the size of the community.

[ConVicT]

I read some of this, and some of it I just said to my self "meh, probably not worth reading".
This should've just ended with Z-Man's post.
Justs seems like childish bickering from there on out.

Let's just see what happens with this global moderation.
I have to say though. There isn't really any point in adding me to it, because I only play in subs, or CTWF, both of which seem totally fine to me as far as all this crap goes.

[Slov]

I have to say though. There isn't really any point in adding me to it, because I only play in subs, or CTWF, both of which seem totally fine to me as far as all this crap goes.

I've been playing alot in empha's sumo bar lately and have to say the same. Only once there was this guy harrasing chrisd who started going at me too but I just kept msging him "i love you" until he got bored and left.

PSA: if you don't respond, nobody will bother to troll you

[TaZ]

Why would I fear this?

Because, in my opinion, you are, at best, a borderline troll/idiot/asshole. Having the community in the current state it's in, behaviourwise, suits you down to the ground.

Tactless statements with no claims or quotes to back it up.

It seems like this community has gone stale and is now looking for random shit to keep the bickering alive.

This is not random shit, there is some actual cyberbullying going on, I've seen it myself.
If the community has become stale, it's largely because the trolls/idiots/assholes are putting people off the game. Like I said, I play the game a lot and I see new people trying it out all the time. These new people are treated badly and they don't come back. I'm sure there are some people that just don't like the game itself but, from what I've seen, that is mostly not the case.

This seems heavily exaggerated. Could you provide some examples when a new person played and left because they were treated so badly. I haven't seen this happen since fort died years ago. Also, did you intervene during these cases?

[ConVicT]

Why would I fear this?

Because, in my opinion, you are, at best, a borderline troll/idiot/asshole. Having the community in the current state it's in, behaviourwise, suits you down to the ground.

Tactless statements with no claims or quotes to back it up.

Facts are null here because it's just his opinion.

E.G IMO, you're a bit daft.
I've no claims or quotes to back that up.
Your posts speak for themselves.

[Monkey]

Yeah, what Convict said. I could also add an example but then this will turn into a slanging match, which I dont want.

Could you provide some examples when a new person played and left because they were treated so badly.I haven't seen this happen since fort died years ago.

As you well know, fort hasn't died and it's often in fort (including CTWF) that this occurs. Next time it happens I will go out of my way to take screenshots and post them on these forums..

Also, did you intervene during these cases?

I do my best to encourage new players to stick around. I welcome them, try to teach them how to play, etc. However, I don't have much control over what other people do. I do ask other people to try to teach them first, then if that fails to suspend them but it's often of limited effect.