The Community is You!!!

General Stuff about Armagetron, That doesn't belong anywhere else...
chrisd
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Re: The Community is You!!!

Post by chrisd »

ConVicT wrote:So, unlike me, you took his apology as genuine?
Yes, I took it as genuine. But, really, whether or not it was genuine, if somebody swears at another person once and gets warned and does not continue I do not see a reason for any further measures regardless of whether or not they say 'sorry'. When I was a moderator I have been told that I was too lenient but that is how I see it.

You seem to be comparing it to the case of vogue but really the two could not be any more different. If you cannot see the difference between uttering abuse at a rate of swearing at a person once every ten second for multiple minutes and just saying one wrong thing once I think we can safely conclude there is a bigger problem with your moderation skills than mine..... Also in the case of vogue there is the fact that she has been insulting many different people in extremely mean ways over the years. Clearly the history of a person needs to be taken into account as well. With vogue it took many years of seeing her insult lots of different people to come to the point where I would like to see here driven out of arma altogether if possible.

When I was a moderator many years ago there was this person called dr. Heaven who would always hurl insults at everybody and camp endlessly, which is a problem if you have infinite walls. When he would come in I would give him a chance to show that he had bettered his ways but given his history I would kick him without warning after his first insult and immediately kick if he came back after that.
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ConVicT
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Re: The Community is You!!!

Post by ConVicT »

There's a big difference between swearing at someone and discrimination.
I'd say calling you a *** is discriminating, not just swearing at you.

I can't even say one thing about vogue because I've never interacted with him/her. Do you mean she/he swore at you the way I mean?

I mean, I wouldn't kick or even warn anyone for simply saying "f*uck you", when they're killed, because things like that can be said with a sense of endearment.
chrisd
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Re: The Community is You!!!

Post by chrisd »

ConVicT wrote:There's a big difference between swearing at someone and discrimination.
I'd say calling you a *** is discriminating, not just swearing at you.
Convict, you are not reading my messages very well. I stated before that rookie was NOT calling me a f.a.g. but some other person, I forgot who it was. Calling somebody a *** when you know they are gay is discrimination, yes. Calling some person who is probably not gay a *** is not really discrimination. Unfortunately, it is extremely common among kids to do this. This is unfortunate because the gay kids who are still in the closet and go to the same school hear these comments and it can really get to them even if it is not directed at them. But saying f.a.g. is so common that it is quite understandable that it flies out of somebodies mouth without thinking. This is how I interpret what rookie said. Also, for the gay kids who may be present it is really very helpful if somebody says that this throwing around of f.a.g.g.o.t. is not good even if it does not actually stop it because it shows them that there are people who care and are on their side. Also, a common thing that happens is that the gay kid after some years musters the courage to come out to his friends who have been uttering 'f.a.g.' for years basically at everybody and everything they don't like and the first thing out of the mouth of these f.a.g. uttering friends is 'ow man, we did not know and are so sorry about what we have been saying all the time'. In such a case clearly the saying of f.a.g. has done some damage but it was not intentional and in fact the heart of kids involved was in the right place even if they were not thinking their actions through.
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sinewav
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Re: The Community is You!!!

Post by sinewav »

ConVicT wrote:I mean, I wouldn't kick or even warn anyone for simply saying "f*uck you", when they're killed, because things like that can be said with a sense of endearment.
Right, and no one would reasonably kick someone for that outburst (though it used to happen regularly in Wild West servers several years ago). Again, we are not talking about "banter" as you like to call it, but harassment and bullying, sexism and discrimination. Admittedly, the line can be fuzzy at times, but making that call what a moderators job is, and their effectiveness judged by the community they moderate.
TaZ
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Re: The Community is You!!!

Post by TaZ »

I'm just going to post what I and many others think about this thread. I wasn't going to post, but we're obviously on a way to a #ShamelessAmerica.

First off, Nara you are WEAK. You mention you shouldn't baby trolls, yet it always seems like you're crying on threads. You're an adult, and if derogatory comments about your sex hurt you, then maybe you need to find out why those comments bother you so much. I actually would love to know, especially when there is a silence option in the game.

ChrisD:
The same goes for you. Why did those things Liz say hurt you?

Sinewav:
The solution isn't to ban these people, but it's to empower those who you feel are affected by it. Obviously Nara is constantly affected by sexism on the grid. Maybe you should EMPOWER her to know that these things should not affect her...or maybe you could just continue to ban trolls who can easily circumvent the punishment. Which sounds like the better solution, Sinewav?

Monkey:
It baffles me that you guys are sitting here saying you're bothered by Durf. You had to fight "fire with fire"?....lame excuse. You couldn't just ignore him? People with common sense and knowledge of Durf know not to engage with him in debate.
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Re: The Community is You!!!

Post by Monkey »

I am actually shaking my head right now.
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sinewav
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Re: The Community is You!!!

Post by sinewav »

Monkey wrote:I am actually shaking my head right now.
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kyle
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Re: The Community is You!!!

Post by kyle »

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nara
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Re: The Community is You!!!

Post by nara »

Taz, it sounds like you are upset I said people are still against Vogue because she does things like verbally abuse chrisd. I just stated what actually happened. Would anyone argue with what happened?

It doesn't matter if you think I'm weak and crying on the forums :wink: I won't stop (until I do) talking about trolling as a problem this community needs to take seriously.

My life would be much easier if I had just put up with the insulting ways tronners talk about women, and not have made it a problem. You won't believe, and I did not expect, the amount of pushback this issue is getting. People are VERY upset that I have a problem with trolling and sexism on the grid. What nerve have I struck in this community when I simply asked for some measures to end abusive behavior on the grid?

The silence option doesn't work in all cases. For example, if someone threatens to send screenshots to your manager if you don't apologize for something trivial he wants you to apologize for, which would endanger your work IRL, that's not something you feel better about if you silence the person. I saw this happen on the grid. There's a lot of asshole behavior on the grid right now, and all I asked for from the beginning is for people to not put up with it, because they shouldn't have to. For anyone saying you do have to put up with it, I say...there is such a thing as moderators, y'know.

The bottom line is...I want fewer assholes on the grid. If you have a problem with that, I don't know what your problem is (unless you're one of those assholes, then I totally understand). Everyone else, it honestly does not hurt you to have fewer assholes on the grid. What IS so controversial about minimizing asshole behavior on the grid? It's so simple! What are you people on?
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nara
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Re: The Community is You!!!

Post by nara »

There's no point in discussing this with people who don't read what has already been said, who repeat the same opinions, or write in a knee-jerk defense of people they imagine have been slighted. It's okay to disagree, but if you want to have any sort of useful conversation about anything, it doesn't help to repeat the same thing 15 other people have said before you, and which has been addressed. Or do it anyway, and I suggest people stop responding to the same points to save themselves from repeating themselves.

So far it seems like people who are upset with this thread have two complaints (using Solutai's second post in the other thread as basis, because it shows it most clearly):

1) they don't think abuse on the grid is a big deal
2) they don't think there is anything anyone can do about it

Enough has already been written on both points that, if anyone is still posting about these two points, it's because they're either not reading anything anyone has written in response to them, or simply not convinced, in which case it does nothing to repeat the same opinions. I suggest people move on to the second point and figure out how to get more moderators in servers.
Last edited by nara on Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:18 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Slov
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Re: The Community is You!!!

Post by Slov »

TaZ wrote:who can easily circumvent the punishment
pretty much ^ I think you guys are just wasting your time with this
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TaZ
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Re: The Community is You!!!

Post by TaZ »

Nara, I'm very glad you edited your last reply, because it was pure nonsense.
nara wrote:Taz, it sounds like you are upset I said people are still against Vogue because she does things like verbally abuse chrisd. I just stated what actually happened. Would anyone argue with what happened?
I'm not upset whatsoever. I actually agree with what you stated before.
nara wrote:It doesn't matter if you think I'm weak and crying on the forums :wink: I won't stop (until I do) talking about trolling as a problem this community needs to take seriously.

My life would be much easier if I had just put up with the insulting ways tronners talk about women, and not have made it a problem. You won't believe, and I did not expect, the amount of pushback this issue is getting. People are VERY upset that I have a problem with trolling and sexism on the grid. What nerve have I struck in this community when I simply asked for some measures to end abusive behavior on the grid?
I don't think anyone is upset that you have a problem with sexism and trolling on the grid. Trolling happens on this game. Most people who are trolled, especially adults, deflect those comments because they know who they are as a person. Not everyone has to be in a constant protective bubble. This is why I say you need empowerment. You are hurt by these comments. Don't be confused, I'm not condoning their behavior. I'm looking at more at plausible solutions. You, Sinewav, and Monkey believe that moderation and banning is the key to stop this behavior. Well, it's not. It goes much further than that. If this thread brought in more realistic solutions that weren't shot down by the politically correct crowd, maybe we would see some realistic type of advancement. Kyle brought up great points that lead to a more realistic and lasting solution.
nara wrote:The silence option doesn't work in all cases. For example, if someone threatens to send screenshots to your manager if you don't apologize for something trivial he wants you to apologize for, which would endanger your work IRL, that's not something you feel better about if you silence the person. I saw this happen on the grid. There's a lot of asshole behavior on the grid right now, and all I asked for from the beginning is for people to not put up with it, because they shouldn't have to. For anyone saying you do have to put up with it, I say...there is such a thing as moderators, y'know.
Ok. Nara that's called blackmailing, and is completely different than the topic at hand.
chrisd
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Re: The Community is You!!!

Post by chrisd »

TaZ wrote:Not everyone has to be in a constant protective bubble. This is why I say you need empowerment. You are hurt by these comments.
There is a lot of assumptions in these words. The thing with assumptions is that they may not be true. In particular sentences starting with 'You are' are a bit dangerous. The people to whom they are directed may well know much better what they are than you do. Actually, that would be the default assumption.

Has it ever occurred to you that people may care about the quality of the community because they want to instead of because they need anything?
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Re: The Community is You!!!

Post by Monkey »

TaZ wrote:I don't think anyone is upset that you have a problem with sexism and trolling on the grid.
Upset probably isn't the right word, however, it seems to me that most of the trolls/idiots/assholes are panicking now that measures are being discussed and implemented to reduce their potency on the grid.
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Z-Man
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Re: The Community is You!!!

Post by Z-Man »

Monkey wrote:@Z-Man
While we're talking about trolls, can we either give Rookie his account back here (I wouldn't but you're the mod) or ban him altogether (my personal preference but again, you're the mod) please? I mean, it's nonsensical that his account is permabanned yet he continues to post via multiple alias accounts.
Rookie's accounts have all behaved like totally different people. The currently active account ([Anonymous]) is behaving in an acceptable manner. Worst thing he's doing is confusing me by randomly agreeing with people left and right. I don't know about any others (Tweezy, maybe? Tolerable as well.) I don't want to risk the experiment unlocking the account that started out with penis spam.

On topic, to me, the difference between friendly banter and trolling/bullying/harassing is quite simple. If it's only friendly banter and someone asks you to stop it because it reduces their enjoyment of the game, you stop it or at least turn it down a notch or two. I'll let everyone finish that train of thought on their own.

Also, I think a lot of the heat in here comes from you not understanding what level of hostile language everyone else is talking about. I find it hard to believe that some of the levels of actual harassment out there are considered harmless and ignorable by some, and equally hard to believe that the much larger volume of perfectly fine teasing talk would be considered so offensive by others that it needs correction. So please be explicit about what you're talking about. You're allowed to use quotes and examples even if they would not be strictly in line with forum policies IF YOU ARE careful. That is, for example, you clearly need to be only quoting them for demonstration purposes and neither writing them because you want to write them nor using them to make the one who originally said them look bad. Best remove personal references.

Also also, what I think this topic is NOT about is what server owners or devs can do, that's what the other ones are for. Global bans may be a necessary evil. Bans on servers are a good tool. Permanently active moderators enforcing sensible rules are better. But the very best for a nicer environment for everyone would be a community that makes good use of the tools given to them. This topic is about that. Yeah, the clientside silence is one of the tools, but so are the kick polls. You all want more new players, right? Think about how many of them leave when they're greeted as "newfags" and worse things.
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