The Community is You!!!

[ConVicT]

Don't you think that maybe the reaction from people is what drives them to do more "wrong" almost as if they see punishment as reward and they want more of it.

That's what they are, trolls, and they don't "fail to see how their behavior hurts others", hurting others is their whole thing.
You can either play their game, or you can silence them. There's nothing in armagetron for a troll, unless we all keep playing their games.

I can't help but see the similarities.
We've fed them three threads in a week.

But overall you cannot fight fire with fire, someone's gotta pour the water over to put it out.

Totally agree.
I can't see Monkey, or sinwav changing their minds on this one though, they've been consistent on this for a while.

[sinewav]

I honestly don't know what the right course of action is in this case. In the latest sexism thread I advocated for unity in public shaming since bans are less than effective on the grid. I understand some people can be reformed, but it's also clear that some people will not respond to any amount of rehabilitation.

As a side note, I have noticed a striking similarity between today's climate and how the CTF community looked right before it collapsed for good. In those last days, everyone played under alias. The trolls changed names to avoid kicks and the people who enjoyed the game constantly changed their aliases because they didn't want to be bothered with the toxic community. The increased anonymity actually made things worse since people had no reputation to uphold. Everyone was brutal to each other until the social element was completely destroyed, leaving no incentive to play anymore (after all, CTF is a team game).

Personally, I don't have time to play Arma as much as I would like. These days, I can't be bothered to respond to aliased players or people who are targeting me. Even on these forums some people aren't worth the effort to confront. They just need to be marginalized or pushed out completely because they don't contribute to the good health of the community. We need unity more than ever, and luckily, the community is small enough that we can make that happen.

[nara]

[[Anonymous]]

All trolls need to be exiled imo.

[Monkey]

You can either play their game, or you can silence them.

Don't forget that I tried ignoring and silencing Durf yet he still found a way around that to troll me. In the end I had to "fight fire with fire" and gave him it back greater than what I was getting; that was the only thing that worked.

Some of you guys have good intentions but you're naive. I used to think like you too but I've learn a lot about people since then.

[aP|Nelg]

I mean can we agree on and create a list of things the community will not tolerate and then agree to expose all players to them and enforce them uniformly? If the type of behaviour/troll that the OP is worried about is spreading maybe this is a way to deal with it without future headaches?

Why don't we keep an IP chart around tron's server owners so that way we can track trolls easier?

All trolls need to be exiled imo.

Trolls keep the balance.

Make up your mind.

[nara]

Stop babying trolls.

We've fed them three threads in a week.

No, Convict, trolls don't need to be fed. Trolls troll on the Internet because they want to, they don't need a reason. The same trolls would have trolled one way or another regardless of these threads - that is why these threads exist in the first place....

I would, but the rest of the community would have to release their grudges, or else they won't change, because everyone is still against them.

No, kyle, everyone is still against them because Vogue does things like verbally abuse chrisd when he didn't bother her. I stopped conversing with Durf after he started making unreasonable/insulting claims. It's not about the rest of the community, it's about them. I could be wrong, but that's my assessment from what I've experienced/seen. The point is, don't baby people who have the ability to reflect and change their own behaviors if they want to.

[chrisd]

The issue of server moderation has come up. This is potentially much more effective than IP bans. E.g., I have seen vogue being IP-banned from a server by the owner and being back with apparently another IP address in a few seconds. This would then repeat quite a few times in a row. This is what happens with persons who have absolutely zero respect for anybody.

Moderation is a tricky thing though. One needs to have moderators that are mature enough to do the job and instruct them well. The danger is always that moderators start using their abilities for 'joking around' which is actually in no way funny. Moderators can be more effective than IP-bans if they can be around enough. For that they do not need to kick because players can be back quickly. If you silence the offender so they cannot speak to anyone and ban then to spectator mode and repeat that as they come back they will quickly lose interest. I did not think out this strategy by myself but have to credit it to Durka.

[ConVicT]

No, Convict, trolls don't need to be fed. Trolls troll on the Internet because they want to, they don't need a reason. The same trolls would have trolled one way or another regardless of these threads - that is why these threads exist in the first place....

They don't need a reason, but reasons give them more ammo.
This thread exists because of trolls and more trolls exist because of this thread.
It's a paradox.

As for chrisd, I've had my eye on him for a couple of days and it seems he only complains if he doesn't like the person that's trolling him.
E.G. Yesterday, rookie called him a f.a.g, and then said "Sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!!" (Imo, his sorry is clearly just a way of calling him a f.a.g and getting away with it).
But instead of doing what he did here, chrisd said "/me forgives you!!!!!!!!!!"

Point of that story is that even the people that are complaining there's a problem, fail to see that they're part of the problem.

[Monkey]

Stop babying trolls.

Agreed.

This thread exists because of trolls

Agreed.

more trolls exist because of this thread

What?

@Z-Man
While we're talking about trolls, can we either give Rookie his account back here (I wouldn't but you're the mod) or ban him altogether (my personal preference but again, you're the mod) please? I mean, it's nonsensical that his account is permabanned yet he continues to post via multiple alias accounts.

[sinewav]

Point of that story is that even the people that are complaining there's a problem, fail to see that they're part of the problem.

You're still new here. It's not a problem of inconsistency. If chrisd has a character flaw it is that he's too nice. He's very non-confrontational, which makes his "global ban on vogue" thread all the more disturbing. He's taken years of abuse from her (most of us have). This is a perfect example of chrisd "taking it on the chin" as you say, but everyone has a limit. We've all been taking it on the chin for way too long.


EDIT: ConVicT, I'm adding you to my growing list of moderators. We might not agree on the problem's scope, but you seem to have a fairly good sense about some of this stuff.

[ConVicT]

If you're looking for more to add to the list, I would highly recommend "locutus@forums".
He is already moderator in three servers that I know of, including mine.
He's fair and doesn't tolerate any of the things we're trying to prevent.

[chrisd]

As for chrisd, I've had my eye on him for a couple of days and it seems he only complains if he doesn't like the person that's trolling him.
E.G. Yesterday, rookie called him a f.a.g, and then said "Sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!!" (Imo, his sorry is clearly just a way of calling him a f.a.g and getting away with it).
But instead of doing what he did here, chrisd said "/me forgives you!!!!!!!!!!"

Point of that story is that even the people that are complaining there's a problem, fail to see that they're part of the problem.

Not really. Actually, as a moderator I would be far harsher on people who troll others than people who troll me. That is because moderation is a public function and when I am chatting I am just chrisd. There is a difference.

You are also not describing this incident very accurately. Rookie called somebody else, not me, a ***. Then I chatted "Let us not call people '***'!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is not nice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" or something of that sort. After that rookie said 'sorry' as a response and he didn't use that kind of language anymore. If people can be corrected that easily there really is no reason to take any more measures.

[locutus]

I would be happy to help, I usually don't discipline anyone who trolls me as i am a big boy and can put up with a lot, but as soon as they troll others (yes, even exdude), I am on it, also, if multiple players complain about a person running or trolling, then I will step in if the community at large speaks up during game play, thanks for the recommendation Convict

[ConVicT]

If people can be corrected that easily there really is no reason to take any more measures.

So, unlike me, you took his apology as genuine?

Sorry, chrisd, but even his "Sorry!!!!!!!" was meant to annoy you, as far as I can see.