Just in case you think it's no big deal

[nara]

I was playing under "Jade". That's my real name lol. Some in the community know that is my real name.

You came in under "C***hunter" and I probably did poll you. You use a name as threatening and sexist as that and expect women to be cool with it? We generally don't hunt people. For you to additionally specify a specific body part of a woman to hunt, that's dehumanizing and unacceptable.

I don't understand your claim that you didn't know I was female. Like that mattered to you? When you put on a name, everyone can see it. Also, I was playing under "Jade" when you entered, a common female name. If you didn't know that was a female name, now you do.

I didn't even bother engaging until you called everyone a f***** and started complaining why everyone on the grid are assholes. I just explained to you why that is ironic given your behavior. That apparently pissed you off though because you spent a long time insulting me with extremely sexist comments and came in multiple times as different names and continued to insult me.

Sorry Press, but I don't feel bad for you at all. I haven't hid the fact that I don't like your generous use of sexist language. In another instance you told me to "spread my legs" and something else. If you think we'd be cool even though you use sexist language like that, wake up. But most importantly, you lost all credibility when you decided it was okay to engage in extremely sexist language to anyone on the grid, even if you didn't know that was me.

This is the only post I'm writing in regards to this, to address Pressure. Like I said at the beginning, this was not the point, and I hope people keep it on topic and discuss the problem of the widespread culture and tolerance for misogyny on the grid, and concrete solutions for it.

[GRANDMASTERPRESSURE]

[GRANDMASTERPRESSURE]

Well, can we compare IPs now? I still doubt this is the real pressure. Why didn't he do something like that during the last 6 years?

Compare deez nutz, noob. And it's been 10 years, recognize.

I was playing under "Jade". That's my real name lol. Some in the community know that is my real name.

You came in under "C***hunter" and I probably did poll you. You use a name as threatening and sexist as that and expect women to be cool with it? We generally don't hunt people. For you to additionally specify a specific body part of a woman to hunt, that's dehumanizing and unacceptable.

I don't understand your claim that you didn't know I was female. Like that mattered to you? When you put on a name, everyone can see it. Also, I was playing under "Jade" when you entered, a common female name. If you didn't know that was a female name, now you do.

I didn't even bother engaging until you called everyone a f***** and started complaining why everyone on the grid are assholes. I just explained to you why that is ironic given your behavior. That apparently pissed you off though because you spent a long time insulting me with extremely sexist comments and came in multiple times as different names and continued to insult me.

Sorry Press, but I don't feel bad for you at all. I haven't hid the fact that I don't like your generous use of sexist language. In another instance you told me to "spread my legs" and something else. If you think we'd be cool even though you use sexist language like that, wake up. But most importantly, you lost all credibility when you decided it was okay to engage in extremely sexist language to anyone on the grid, even if you didn't know that was me.

This is the only post I'm writing in regards to this, to address Pressure. Like I said at the beginning, this was not the point, and I hope people keep it on topic and discuss the problem of the widespread culture and tolerance for misogyny on the grid, and concrete solutions for it.

TLDR, LOL.




That's all the forum and community I can handle in a decade. It's been fun but I gotta go serve soup to the poor.

TOODALOO!

preSs One


P.S. Nara, baby.... no hard feelings, K? Love ya, mean it, don't change!

(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

[sinewav]

Wow, way to loose the popularity contest with a bang.

[Z-Man]

Trollish account banned for a week. The IP seems to be his real one, it's also been active on the masters, first appearance 2015/06/26. Looks to me like it's a static IP and a relatively new player who may just have accidentally stumbled into impostering Pressure. PM me if you want to know the IP to crosscheck with your server logs. But this conversation is not about him.

I don't know how bad general manners are these days, but I morally support any effort to create a better moderation network across servers. I'd even implement helper architecture. Only thing is... If I do it, it would be a bit crap. Here's a sketch of my best design effort:
IMHO, the system needs to be decentral. Tie it to a single server and that server will go down, get attacked, get forgotten or cause other problems. It also needs to function even if peers go down.
So in my system, everyone could be a ban list publisher, it's just a question of who subscribes to whom. You'd become a publisher by checking out some git/bzr repository and editing some plain text configuration files, running a process on them, then publishing the results via a regular web server.
Configuration files would be:
Ban list. One IP/IP range/GID per line, followed by an expiration date. Comments detailing the ban reason come before the ban lines, start with #.
Moderator list. One GID and the access level that GID should get.
Upstream list. List of URIs where other ban list publishers that you trust publish their lists. Their Ban and moderator lists will be included in your list.
Unban list. IP/IP range/GIDs that should not be banned even if one of your upstreams says so.
A configuration file. How many levels of recursion do you want to follow while fetching the upstream lists? How much do you trust them? Maybe two independent ban entries are required before you blindly take it over. How should conflicts be handled? Where do we put the stuff you publish?
A Python script would then take those files, fetch and cache the lists from your upstream publishers, and mash them all together and produce server configuration files and what you publish for others.
To add someone to your banlist, you'd edit the ban file and run publish.py or something.
Server owners would need to essentially do the same thing; they would not need to edit personal ban/unban/moderator lists, of course, and would not need to publish anything. But they'd edit the upstream list and let the python script run via the game server's script spawning mechanism. That may even feed the ban commands directly to the server.

Anyway, that system is probably too Unix-y. If this should catch on, you'd probably need to ditch the decentral aspect and just set up a web server with a nice UI where you can add/remove/modify your list entries; the web server should publish the configuration files as simple direct HTTP downloads.

[TheRealTweezy]

This isn't right at all. We all must speak against pressure and his actions. This is not tolerated by Me. .GOV

[nara]

I just spent a long time responding to solutions suggested and the website timed me out Urgh. This time through might be more hurried than I intended.

Just to echo what others have said, this is not a case of growing a thicker skin. I feel like now is a good time to explore what realistic steps we can take to improve our community. What tools are available to help facilitate moderation?

Years ago in an attempt to cut back on foul language, some Wild West servers ran a word filter script. Triggering the bot too many times would result in a temporary silence. Continued abuse would result in an auto kick/ban. Of course, it's fairly easy to outsmart a word-filter and I'm not suggesting one be used in this way. But is possible to improve on this idea? For example, using a filter that silently tracks offensive language and reports IPs to server administrators for review? This seems trivial to implement.

As small as our community is I have no reservations about banning abusive people from servers. I think we're long overdue for a public blacklist. Speaking of lists, I am creating a whitelist of players I consider to have high integrity in this area. I want something to easily RINCLUDE. Once I get it set up I will publish the configuration file and location on the wiki. It will also include a default message of "Discriminatory language will not be tolerated" in the MOD, server options, and round console. (naturally, server owners should include this at the beginning of their file if they use those settings for something else.)

Can anyone think of other things to include in the list? Let's use every tool available to increase awareness. On the topic of awareness, I have marked my servers with a pink @ symbol to remind me of my commitment.

If the community is to improve on this matter we need to empower the players who want to make a difference. That means promoting people to moderator, hindering people who are abusive, and creating novel tools to make the process easier.

Thanks Sine. I completely agree with you. Do we still have the word-filter script that WW used to have? Something that silences when triggered too many times, then bans for a period of time, would be useful against language like slurs. That kind of language should not be happening in the first place, this would make it impossible and does not require human effort and time.

I think a file with the default message "discriminatory language will not be tolerated" or a warning of some kind available in different spots in a server (MOD, server options, round console) that a server owner can choose from is great. I would like to see the word-filter script easily available to server owners too. The idea is to make it easy for server owners to implement moderation in their own servers if they would like. I would strongly encourage server owners to implement some of these things, which would troll-proof gameplay for the rest of your players so they are not constantly having to poll people (though I'm happy to see more players deciding to just poll and kick a troll swiftly).

I agree with your last sentence. We need to give more active players who have the ability to moderate, maturity, and decency the tools needed to curb inappropriate behavior. Many of these things would not be happening if someone present had moderator status. If server owners would find a black/whitelist helpful, then great.

Also, why not introduce the possibility of starting a poll to silence the player (that is valid even after he leaves and re-enters, maybe with another vote to unsilence him)? We had this already.

I think the option for a group to silence a player collectively would be nice, we don't have that now. It would also be helpful for any polling decision to remain in effect for at least some time even after a player leaves the server, so that it's not as easy as leaving a server to reverse the decision. Do we still have the code for this, if this already exists?

Trollish account banned for a week. The IP seems to be his real one, it's also been active on the masters, first appearance 2015/06/26. Looks to me like it's a static IP and a relatively new player who may just have accidentally stumbled into impostering Pressure. PM me if you want to know the IP to crosscheck with your server logs. But this conversation is not about him.

I don't know how bad general manners are these days, but I morally support any effort to create a better moderation network across servers. I'd even implement helper architecture. Only thing is... If I do it, it would be a bit crap. Here's a sketch of my best design effort:
IMHO, the system needs to be decentral. Tie it to a single server and that server will go down, get attacked, get forgotten or cause other problems. It also needs to function even if peers go down.
So in my system, everyone could be a ban list publisher, it's just a question of who subscribes to whom. You'd become a publisher by checking out some git/bzr repository and editing some plain text configuration files, running a process on them, then publishing the results via a regular web server.
Configuration files would be:
Ban list. One IP/IP range/GID per line, followed by an expiration date. Comments detailing the ban reason come before the ban lines, start with #.
Moderator list. One GID and the access level that GID should get.
Upstream list. List of URIs where other ban list publishers that you trust publish their lists. Their Ban and moderator lists will be included in your list.
Unban list. IP/IP range/GIDs that should not be banned even if one of your upstreams says so.
A configuration file. How many levels of recursion do you want to follow while fetching the upstream lists? How much do you trust them? Maybe two independent ban entries are required before you blindly take it over. How should conflicts be handled? Where do we put the stuff you publish?
A Python script would then take those files, fetch and cache the lists from your upstream publishers, and mash them all together and produce server configuration files and what you publish for others.
To add someone to your banlist, you'd edit the ban file and run publish.py or something.
Server owners would need to essentially do the same thing; they would not need to edit personal ban/unban/moderator lists, of course, and would not need to publish anything. But they'd edit the upstream list and let the python script run via the game server's script spawning mechanism. That may even feed the ban commands directly to the server.

Anyway, that system is probably too Unix-y. If this should catch on, you'd probably need to ditch the decentral aspect and just set up a web server with a nice UI where you can add/remove/modify your list entries; the web server should publish the configuration files as simple direct HTTP downloads.

Thanks Z-man. I think a moderation network across servers would be a positive thing for the game in general. I understood basically what you described with the ban publishers updating their own lists and subscribing to each other. Are ban publishers making life easier for server owners basically, who can take these lists and feed them into the server configuration? If you or someone else who knows how to code and is willing could implement the helper structure (whatever that is...), that would be really amazing, because it would probably be more crap if I did it since I don't code. I'm definitely willing to learn some code and help build this, as long as you people don't mind some questions

This isn't right at all. We all must speak against pressure and his actions. This is not tolerated by Me. .GOV

Thanks Tweezy, that was really helpful.

[ConVicT]

This seems out of hand to me (all of it).
I mean, why can't you just ignore these people?
It's not hard, and you don't have to silence everyone like you say.
Plus, you can just assure yourself that these people are f*cking idiots and have no life/lives. Their life, literally revolves around you being offended; think about it. You actually give some idiot's life a li'l bit of meaning. Bask in it, praise nara (hmm?), and tell them if it weren't for you, they'd be bored.

I see this kind of crap every time I play and I can tell you for a fact that it's over within a couple of rounds if nobody reacts to it/shows they're offended.
This thread has now made you a target for every troll on tron.
In my opinion, you've made it all worse for yourself. "I'm not personally offended, I'm speaking for everyone" (not exact quote, I'm lazy), just makes me further believe that you are personally offended . Which, btw, is what every troll has seen.

Let me ask you a question; has it gotten worse since this thread? I don't even need an answer because I already know the answer.
For all of you that thought this would make it better that it's known and something should be done. It doesn't, and yes, something can be done...

I can see what Z-Man is saying, but, seriously, you think every server owner is gonna get on board and be censored?
Some of the owners are also the cause... Don't see it happening.
Nice idea though.

Maybe there should be some sort of test before someone is allowed to own a server.

[sinewav]

It's not hard...

You can't make that claim because you have no point of reference, not being a woman and all. It's naive to think ignoring people will make them stop harassing you. In many cases it causes them to try harder. Sexism in gaming and in life is a huge, huge problem that goes waaaaaay beyond "just ignore them."

We need to have these conversations more frequently because there is not enough awareness of the problem, mostly because the people who are harassing others fail to see how their behavior hurts others. I get it. Life is hard. But the sexism women face everyday can't and shouldn't be remedied by growing a thicker skin because the result is a world of hard, calloused people. We need to do everything possible to marginalize sexist individuals, just like we marginalize racists and homophobes.

[[Anonymous]]

It's not hard...

You can't make that claim because you have no point of reference, not being a woman and all. It's naive to think ignoring people will make them stop harassing you. In many cases it causes them to try harder. Sexism in gaming and in life is a huge, huge problem that goes waaaaaay beyond "just ignore them."

We need to have these conversations more frequently because there is not enough awareness of the problem, mostly because the people who are harassing others fail to see how their behavior hurts others. I get it. Life is hard. But the sexism women face everyday can't and shouldn't be remedied by growing a thicker skin because the result is a world of hard, calloused people. We need to do everything possible to marginalize sexist individuals, just like we marginalize racists and homophobes.

Sine has a point. This is the inly way to go believe it or not.

[ConVicT]

You can't make that claim because you have no point of reference, not being a woman and all.

Maybe you're right, but I can empathise with almost anyone, in any situation.
"Ignore them" is the best possible advice anyone could give. Sticks and stones...

The reason I think that's the best advice is because, you and everyone else seriously overestimate the power of these forums.
We're not going to change the world, so let's just focus on what you can do if this happens in the game.

We need to have these conversations more frequently because there is not enough awareness of the problem, mostly because the people who are harassing others fail to see how their behavior hurts others.

This, I totally disagree with.
If anything, having these conversations more frequently lets the trolls know the best way possible to piss off certain people.
That's what they are, trolls, and they don't "fail to see how their behavior hurts others", hurting others is their whole thing.
You can either play their game (which is what she's doing if she's answering back a single one of them), or you can silence them (every other decent person should ignore/silence them too), and I can guarantee that they'll get bored and move along to someone else. If everyone does this, they'll move on from the game altogether.

To sum up, there's nothing in armagetron for a troll, unless we all keep playing their games.

[compguygene]

Let's talk about the practical beginning of a possible solution that Z-man has put forward. It appears that only 2 server owners, Sinewav and I, are looking to implement such a solution initially. I doubt if all server owners would ever sign on to such a system, if only to allow for the culture that they want in their servers. That is ok. What we are really talking about is creating a "safe space" in Armagetron that would hopefully draw more players into those servers. Also, keep in mind that we have a personal interest in playing in that kind of environment, so we want to create it. The hope is that enough players will want to play in what could be a nicer, more pleasant environment, that it becomes popular and more server owners want to adopt it.
In other words, we are going to try to force some change by making a positive change. Eventually, this could be something that we could even get the gaming press to pick up and run with to promote the game to gamers that are looking for a better environment.

[sinewav]

The reason I think that's the best advice is because, you and everyone else seriously overestimate the power of these forums. We're not going to change the world, so let's just focus on what you can do if this happens in the game.

No one here thinks we will change the world, we've only been focusing on how to improve this community. Within the confines of the game there is not much we can do outside of creating a voluntary framework to improve moderation. You're right in thinking this will have minimal effect. You're wrong in thinking these conversations are counterproductive.

There will always be troublemakers. We need to work toward having fewer troublemakers. But more importantly, we need to combat the subtle, "everyday" sexism that's weaved throughout this game and the world at large. It starts by convincing people something can be done and that small steps lead to big gains. For instance, every one of us is capable of making small changes to the way we speak. Instead of telling another player to "stop being a little bitch" be more honest about the behavior you don't like. If they are being cowardly, tell them to stop being cowardly. If they are whining then tell them to stop complaining instead of using these easy fall-back phrases. And, remind people who use sexist language that they can do better.

Of course, it really helps when you have someone you care about support you. When I was a kid I got hooked on the phrase "that's gay." Everything I didn't like was gay -- until later in life one of my good friends was gay. Whenever I said "that's gay" around him he would flash a cute smile and say "if it was gay it would be cool!" It was his reminder that this phrase was not Ok with him. He was gay and cool and he was my friend and over time I was able to stop saying "that's gay" and I'm proud of myself for doing it. I think we can all be a little prouder about how we speak to others.

Find one small thing you can do to make things better and try and get another person to do the same. That's all it takes.

[ConVicT]

Okay, well let's just say it will help.
Considering I'm co-owner of one of the most active servers, you can count me in on it.

If it makes a huge difference, I'll eat my words, but I honestly don't see it.
Although, I won't be signing up for the moderation part. The server has a good active mod already, and when he's not, either myself or the other owner is.

[Monkey]

"Ignore them" is the best possible advice anyone could give.

Not when there are other options like we are discussing now. Moderation and punishment are a much better way of dealing with those kind of people.

the system needs to be decentral. Tie it to a single server and that server will go down, get attacked, get forgotten or cause other problems.

I like Z-Mans ideas, although I'm not entirely convinced about the decentralisation process. I feel that, as a community, we need to have one single list of banned people that is shared by all and, to reduce the damage caused by server attacks, have lots of servers (well, at least as many as is feasible) with this list, that mirror each other (no one server is the master i.e. all are equal). Game servers could then download the list from one of these servers at random. Would it actually be feasable to have game servers themselves act as the list servers?