Just in case you think it's no big deal

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nara
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Just in case you think it's no big deal

Post by nara » Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:39 am

I just had a player, probably Pressure, come into a server as multiple names and insult me as a woman in every way he knows how. At least one time was him. It's like he went through the encyclopedia of misogyny - slut, whore, "Jade is tough" as his name (was he trying to insult me there? lol...), get a boyfriend, lose some weight, etc. If you are one of those people who partake in these insults, know that they are used repeatedly to women on the internet and in real life in order to disempower them and put them down. Before he left he shared his (unwanted) opinion on feminism and called it feminazism.

Okay, just so I get this clear to all of you. Guys on Tron use language insulting to women all the time, either to anyone or to women in particular. I get that some language is used without the gender-specificity, but I've been around long enough to see every variant and I can tell you, it's sexist there on the grid. So Pressure comes in as c***hunter and calls everyone a f*****, and how everyone is a douchebag, and I make a comment about that being ironic, and then he spends way too much time after that insulting me as a woman. And then he says he hates feminazism lol. So, to be even clearer, a guy insults a woman for an extended period of time, intentional and unintentional sexism is directed at women and the public at large every single day on the grid, and women who have a problem with that are Nazis? Lol.

I'm tired of playing off sexism on the grid as less of a big deal than it actually is, because it's just "trolling." Trolls are going to troll, they are going to spend their time insulting people. That's fine. But I think it's ****** up that we tolerate trolling more than feminism.

If I hear someone else other than Pressure say people are getting too PC and that feminists are pathetic, who is spending large amounts of time him or herself insulting people and sometimes getting mad (but hides behind the eternal excuse of "I'm just trolling!"), I have no other reaction other than I think you are legit stupid.

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Re: Just in case you think it's no big deal

Post by sinewav » Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:25 am

I agree there is a problem. Also, I seriously doubt it was PreSsure who was saying those things. It is out of character for him. First, he likes you. Second, he doesn't give enough of a shit about this game or anyone in it for that level of trolling. However, I would like to know who it was, so if you can get an IP we can cross-reference it to make sure.

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Re: Just in case you think it's no big deal

Post by nara » Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:43 am

Hey Sine. I don't care who it was specifically. I'm basically sure it was Pressure, it did not seem out of character to me from some of the interactions I have had with him. I care that the general culture on the grid accepts racist, sexist, homophobic language, and that anyone who does not accept that is too PC, and that people accept asshole behavior on the condition that someone is a troll. You know you can use the kick option, right? I get that going along with something when everyone else does is easier than not accepting it, but everyone accepting it means that thing is now okay. It would be nice if I don't have to listen to straight up insults to women (not just slurs) basically all the time on the grid.

Also, before anyone wants to know why I didn't just silence Pressure, I did, and then he probably came back with another name and continued his pathetic onslaught of insults. We all know how trolls are, ha ha. If you want to make sure it was him, Sine, I don't have his IP but he was in Mud Puddle earlier as himself (Pressure upside down) if you're able to look it up from that.
Last edited by nara on Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Just in case you think it's no big deal

Post by Word » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:42 am

I also doubt that was the real preSsure until there's an IP to back that up, but I hate when people act that way. From reading your story, nara, I can't help thinking the guy perhaps used those insults just to push your buttons. Don't let it get you down too much, that's obviously what that person was aiming for either way.

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Re: Just in case you think it's no big deal

Post by nara » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:51 am

Thank you Word. I think you missed my point. I'm not down, first of all, I'm not personally offended but I'm tired of reading insults directed toward my kind on a daily basis. I can silence everyone, but I would like to be in a community in which I can interact with others. How about instead of "Don't let it get you down, that's what they wanted" i.e. "He's a troll, ignore him," i.e. "We're not going to do anything about this but bear up," we say "This is inappropriate, people like this deserve to be kicked every time and do not deserve to play, and no one should have to deal with this."

Personally I'm going to start polling people to get kicked if I have to silence them for sexist shit, in addition to whatever else I've been doing. I get that it gets tiring and sometimes we just want to have fun. Just bringing this up as an actual problem we have, and reminding people they don't have to put up with trolls and it's easy to just continually kick them from a server until they shut up, so that the burden is not on normal people to do something different but on the troll (or like, just a straight up sexist/racist/etc. person) to stop their shit.

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Re: Just in case you think it's no big deal

Post by Word » Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:20 am

Well, I understand that, and yet I'm just thinking in economic terms - as soon as I invest more time in punishing someone than that guy spends to annoy me, I feel like I have lost, that's why I've grown mostly apathetic towards trolling. If I let him be, he doesn't know whether he got the attention he wants and feels like he has wasted his own time while I haven't and don't feel angry about myself. Mind you, I often don't stick to that principle and call out people most of the time, but I think ignoring them is the smartest way to handle such assholes.
Last edited by Word on Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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nara
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Re: Just in case you think it's no big deal

Post by nara » Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:26 am

I promise you will get some enjoyment from continually kicking someone.

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Re: Just in case you think it's no big deal

Post by Word » Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:19 am

I get that satisfaction from core dumping them until they leave on their own. :wink: If they really annoy me, they are the first to die every single round (though I'll admit I have a very advantageous internet connection that allows me to react in that way).
Unless they are hiding in spec mode.

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nara
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Re: Just in case you think it's no big deal

Post by nara » Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:35 pm

My point is that sexist shits shouldn't be allowed to play in the first place. Unless no one cares that Tronners are daily insulting women on the grid, in that case I would understand why it's allowed. If anyone else cares, do something about it other than play them, which is what you're supposed to do on a grid.

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Re: Just in case you think it's no big deal

Post by compguygene » Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:22 pm

Sadly, this is just a reflection of misogyny in gaming culture in general. There is another soloution within the game that dovetails with something I am setting up right now.
Perhaps we can't change the culture of every game server. We can set up game servers where the people who have moderator also support a clear set of values in regards to moderation and culture. In the end, the idea is to have popular game types, fortress, sumo, low rubber, etc. that are very ping stable, both in Europe and the U.S. that become more attractive to players like you, Nara, because of the moderated experience that would keep the gameplay fun, the trolling, etc tamped down.
Wild West servers existed before the clan. They had moderators drawn from throughout the tron community. In the next 7 days I am going to be putting up Wild West Sumo and Fortress Servers among a few others. These won't be "clan servers" per se, but will be meant to be community servers. I will be seeking moderators, and lots of them, to help curate the culture, with the hope of not doing so with too heavy of a hand.
The hope is to get many of you who play in these types of servers and are like minded to Nara and I as to a positive culture for all to play in to become mods. More on this later once the servers are up in a new topic.
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Re: Just in case you think it's no big deal

Post by sinewav » Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:30 pm

nara wrote:I care that the general culture on the grid accepts racist, sexist, homophobic language, and that anyone who does not accept that is too PC, and that people accept asshole behavior on the condition that someone is a troll.
I'm glad you are bringing this up. I'm sorry my previous post seemed to miss the point, but it was late and I planned on writing more today. Last night I was more shocked that this behavior was coming from PreSsure than the behavior itself, which perfectly underscores your point. We all know sexism is rampant, but what is the solution?

It is nice to imagine a future where server administrators collectively agreed to tackle sexism, where certain servers developed a reputation for not only good performance but high moral integrity. I would even go further and extend moderator privileges to any player who has an outstanding character and stands against all form sexism, racism, and other forms of discrimination. As I type this paragraph I am making a mental list of people to give higher authority in my servers later today. I am also imagining server owners coming together and marking their server names with a prefix that shows solidarity in this matter and clearly states that sexist behavior is not allowed — either in server options, message of day, round console message, or everywhere (also changes I will make in my servers today).

We need more visibility in this matter, but more importantly, we need people to take steps toward a better game for women and everyone else who suffers from gender and sexual discrimination. I'll do what I can, starting right now.

I have more ideas, but I need to sort them out first. I will be back to this thread soon.

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Re: Just in case you think it's no big deal

Post by Monkey » Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:54 am

I totally agree with nara on all points.
Word wrote:I think ignoring them is the smartest way to handle such assholes.
I strongly disagree; the old "ignore the bully and they'll soon go away" nonsense does not work. For example, when Durf kept messaging me shit and it got more and more abusive, the only way to stop it was to give him it back in spades. I did try ignoring him for a while but it failed.

Actions must have consequences and we need to punish people for the kind of behaviour that nara is talking about, preferably by banning them from as many servers as is possible.
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nara
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Re: Just in case you think it's no big deal

Post by nara » Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:58 am

Compguygene, I totally agree with you. Thank you for suggesting a concrete solution, i.e. some moderation on the grid in relation to disrespect and inappropriate behavior. We have moderation on the forum, but on the grid there has always been a clear lack of safeguard against racism/sexism/homophobia, etc, which is basically the Tron community consenting to them in game. Honestly I have thought about the need for moderation on the grid, but since I'm not a server owner thought that might be too much to ask, so at the very least asked that players themselves be less accepting of obviously inappropriate, and rampant, insults and disrespect.

I agree the end goal is a positive culture for all to play in. It is not a positive culture for women to play in when women and others are constantly insulted and disrespected either directly or implicitly in the language used. While some may see any sort of moderation on them as a curb of personal freedom, a) the forums is already moderated and b) personal freedom does not mean the freedom to be an asshole (see a.)

I agree that the goal is not to lay a super heavy hand. I understand that words don't mean the same thing to every person, and to some words like b**** in gaming culture no longer refer only to women (although I would argue it retains its roots...). The point is, it offends me, and if something I say offends another person that I can understand, I would stop out of respect even if I don't agree (unless the request is ridiculous). Generally, there needs to be understanding on both sides about why the other party finds something offensive or inoffensive, so that people with different views on certain words don't get silenced. (Although, honestly, I don't see how one argues pussy and b**** used in derogatory ways, even in today's context, are not associated with women to a certain degree).

Not that most of this detail matters in game, because most of the time what is said is wildly sexist and intended to be, with no room for interpretation. Also, the n word seems to be a commonly accepted word in game, and personally there is no room for interpretation of that either from non-black people, given the US's history.

I think having more frequented servers that also support respect is great, thanks compguygene!

Sine, I appreciate your willingness to make differences as well. It is nice to imagine server administrators collectively disallowing sexism and other forms of disrespect. I think a message that notes sexism and etc. are not allowed in a server is a great idea, they will become bigger problems once people start taking them as such.

Long post, but I am glad this conversation about some changes on the grid is happening. I know misogyny is a part of most gaming culture, but it is nice to change what we can control. There are already a few people who have spoken about and done something about this on Tron and I'm not forgetting their efforts, and I appreciate your responses here as well. I think this is great, if either of you need my help with your server changes in relation to this (or something else even) just let me know.

:D
Monkey wrote:Actions must have consequences and we need to punish people for the kind of behaviour that nara is talking about.
Yes.

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Re: Just in case you think it's no big deal

Post by Word » Sat Oct 03, 2015 3:01 am

Monkey wrote:I strongly disagree; the old "ignore the bully and they'll soon go away" nonsense does not work. For example, when Durf kept messaging me shit and it got more and more abusive, the only way to stop it was to give him it back in spades. I did try ignoring him for a while but it failed.
To me Durf is the exception that proves the rule, if you will. Every non-Durf I know usually shuts up on their own when ignored long enough. Also, don't get me wrong. I don't think spammers and sexists shouldn't be sanctioned, "turning the other cheek" just seems the most practicable way of handling this - if one is able to ignore Durf though, then by all means one should do so.
Sometimes I just admit to be whatever I'm insulted as, and the people who say it actually leave afterwards, probably realizing how absurd their claims are (or so I hope).

As for Durf, he said in the past that he believes his insults only matter to people if they affect them, and that words are just meaningless to him. Whether he actually thinks that, I do not know*, and I don't adopt that view myself. I'm just saying that if you're faced with a completely apathetic person like him, the easiest way to counter that is being a little apathetic yourself for as long as necessary. We already wasted 3 months "debating" with him and you all know how that ended. You can restrain yourselves and regret things you say and do, Durf probably can't. That's why I wouldn't recommend dragging on any conversation with him so he can ruin the game even further for you.
Also, when the two of us were playing fort a while ago (and you later made the post about Durf being able to unsilence himself), you saw what happens. At some point I'd start having a long argument with him because I couldn't stand his shit anymore, but after everyone (including you) was annoyed by both of us arguing, I stopped and he went on for like 20 rounds until he was suddenly quiet. Yeah, according to my own philosophy I shouldn't have started that conversation in the first place, but there's something tragic, frustrating and predictable about his behaviour, no? I find it satisfying enough that I'm not as emotionally numb as him.

*I have doubts he does because otherwise he wouldn't seem to get so much enjoyment from insulting others in the first place

edit: typo
Last edited by Word on Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Just in case you think it's no big deal

Post by TaZ » Sat Oct 03, 2015 2:35 pm

To those that don't think it was pressure, it absolutely sounds like it was him. I don't know why these people think "it's out of character" of him when they don't know his personality. If he knew of this topic, he would read it, laugh and troll nara harder. Pressure is most likely not a misogynist. He probably likes getting a rise out of you like he does durf.

With that being said, if you take what people say on tron to heart, you're not really going to enjoy the game. This is not to say that I don't agree with what you've stated, but people will always talk shit and spew ignorance. It's up to you if you decide to ignore it ,react or take it personally.

Look at Liz for instance. She is a prime example of what happens when someone who is constantly attacked doesn't take shit. She insults people who insult her (most of the time). In turn, she has a reputation as a *****, mostly because she defends herself.

There are two solutions nara: ignore it or talk shit back. Moderation in servers is completely 2009, and it's not coming back unless Ww.Destiny decides to return to the game. As far as the forums, Z-man does a pretty good job with moderation.

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