How pickup kills tron

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wildcat
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Re: How pickup kills tron

Post by wildcat »

I'm not a huge fan of pickup for obvious reasons: takes to long to get a game started and bad captains= game lasting shorter period than the wait. With that said, pickup is better than empty servers. If we didn't have pickup we'd basically play dbd sumo all night to 2000.

As for the complaining, I get what your saying about it being situational. While it does seem silly , most that complain are the ones that screw the game by leaving early without getting a sub.

Things I would propose to improve pickup:

1. Set time limit for picking teams and ready. I hate when ppl add then go take a crap. Just wait and add next game.
2. Majority rules on server choice. Don't pick usa server if it's 10 v 2 eu. Most are considerate but it happens and makes a sucky laggy game.
3. Don't bann for early exits unless they re add. I usually play late at night so the same 12 usually adds. I can see how this rule can be silly. However if someone leaves early and adds, I'm all for the penalty.

newbie
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Re: How pickup kills tron

Post by newbie »

wildcat wrote:If we didn't have pickup we'd basically play dbd sumo all night to 2000.
Ah ah this was nearly yesterday. I propose to send pickup on vacation. Two weeks.
1, 4, 6, 9, 11, 21, 24, 33, 34, 35

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Snxpflash
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Re: How pickup kills tron

Post by Snxpflash »

wildcat wrote:I'm not a huge fan of pickup for obvious reasons: takes to long to get a game started and bad captains= game lasting shorter period than the wait. With that said, pickup is better than empty servers. If we didn't have pickup we'd basically play dbd sumo all night to 2000.

As for the complaining, I get what your saying about it being situational. While it does seem silly , most that complain are the ones that screw the game by leaving early without getting a sub.

Things I would propose to improve pickup:

1. Set time limit for picking teams and ready. I hate when ppl add then go take a crap. Just wait and add next game.
2. Majority rules on server choice. Don't pick usa server if it's 10 v 2 eu. Most are considerate but it happens and makes a sucky laggy game.
3. Don't bann for early exits unless they re add. I usually play late at night so the same 12 usually adds. I can see how this rule can be silly. However if someone leaves early and adds, I'm all for the penalty.

+1000

Monkey
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Re: How pickup kills tron

Post by Monkey »

Wildcat wrote:1. Set time limit for picking teams and ready. I hate when ppl add then go take a crap. Just wait and add next game.
For picking teams I think that this would be very complicated. What happens if the time limit runs out and people haven't picked the teams yet? Do you start the game with 4 v 3 players or whatever has been picked so far? For readying, however, this makes sense and shouldn't be too complicated to do. Once both teams have 6 players each, start the countdown timer and, if it runs out, the game would start with 6 v 6 players.
Wildcat wrote:2. Majority rules on server choice. Don't pick usa server if it's 10 v 2 eu. Most are considerate but it happens and makes a sucky laggy game.
Slightly complicated but doable. Everyone that armabot says is in the game would then have to message armabot with their choice of server. Once armabot receives everyone's decision then it would say the winning server choice. One issue though is that we currently have 1 North American server and 2 European servers. I think that armabot would have to compare NA vs EU votes rather than NA vs Germany vs France votes. Then if EU wins, the simplest way to do it would be to select the EU server with the most number of votes. You could argue that people should then all revote for Germany vs France but this is adding complexity to the situation.
Wildcat wrote:3. Don't ban for early exits unless they re add. I usually play late at night so the same 12 usually adds. I can see how this rule can be silly. However if someone leaves early and adds, I'm all for the penalty.
Several people have already explained why this used to be the case but is not any more. I'll explain it again:
When people leave early, other people follow. This can be because they believe they have missed the "Match Winner" message or that they believe that the people that have left early are going to add for the next game. Nobody knows in advance what people's intentions are when they leave early. Then you have the issue that some people leave early and change their mind about wanting to play in the next game (assuming there is space for them to play). All of this becomes far too complex for moderators to deal with. Note that moderators did originally try to only ban people for leaving early when they were adding for the next game but this turned out to be too troublesome, hence now anyone that leaves early is banned. It is so simple to just wait for the "Match Winner" message.
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ppotter
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Re: How pickup kills tron

Post by ppotter »

On the server thing, it would be nice to be able to type "!add fort6.eu" or "fort6.us" depending on your preference, then the bot can go with the majority. I suppose "!add fort6" can stay too if you're not bothered either way. I don't know how hard that would be to code however.

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dlh
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Re: How pickup kills tron

Post by dlh »

Snxpflash wrote:
epsy wrote:[…]
Welp, there's your problem right there. If that isn't irrational what is? I think, we need to determine what 'is' a problem for pickup and what 'is not'. Leaving between final score and Match_Winner and !add'ing 'is' a problem, as it's unfair to those who waited. However, leaving between final score and Match_Winner and NOT !add'ing, causing not 1 single problem for anyone and therefore 'is not' a problem. So, why should a player be banned? Dlh said to me "I wont take the time to track who !added and who didnt" But then he went on to spend 15min grabbing the log info from epsy to prove I did leave a second or two early. [...]
Don't attribute quotations to me that I didn't make. I took less than one minute to ask for the server log because you contested the screenshot I took. Players leaving before the match is over influences others to also leave. You and four others left the match early and 1 or 2 added for the next match.

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Re: How pickup kills tron

Post by Snxpflash »

dlh wrote:
Snxpflash wrote:
epsy wrote:[…]
Welp, there's your problem right there. If that isn't irrational what is? I think, we need to determine what 'is' a problem for pickup and what 'is not'. Leaving between final score and Match_Winner and !add'ing 'is' a problem, as it's unfair to those who waited. However, leaving between final score and Match_Winner and NOT !add'ing, causing not 1 single problem for anyone and therefore 'is not' a problem. So, why should a player be banned? Dlh said to me "I wont take the time to track who !added and who didnt" But then he went on to spend 15min grabbing the log info from epsy to prove I did leave a second or two early. [...]
Don't attribute quotations to me that I didn't make. I took less than one minute to ask for the server log because you contested the screenshot I took. Players leaving before the match is over influences others to also leave. You and four others left the match early and 1 or 2 added for the next match.

I was having issues with the quoting, my apologies.

If only 1 or 2 added up then only 1 or 2 should have been banned. This is not kindergarten dlh, this is not 'monkey see monkey do' (no pun intended monkey!). If you cause a problem, expect discipline. If you do not cause a problem, glhf. Ty for your services nonetheless dlh.

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Re: How pickup kills tron

Post by szopin »

Sorry, didn't read all replies, but had to post it.

While pickup today got another hiccup and some 8-10 players were waiting for the last few to show up for the game I had some half hour of great games (yeah, sure, 3v2(4) is not fun, sucks so bad, worse than waiting for the last 2 guys lol), teaching a newbie how to setup on 3v1, having a few thrilling defences and a couple of attacks. Keep it up guys, I was wrong. Stay on FB/MySpace, waiting for that 12/12 ping. It's not that bad yet (actually make the indefinite bans more often, Jericho also took part, so the more you ban, the more for normal fort, weird how he didn't tk anyone in free4all game)

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sinewav
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Re: How pickup kills tron

Post by sinewav »

Snxpflash wrote:If you cause a problem, expect discipline. If you do not cause a problem, glhf. Ty for your services nonetheless dlh.
There is something you are missing. Right now you are making a distinction between players who leave early and !add and ones who don't !add. But leaving early is the actual problem whether you !add or not. Players who leave early can cause chain reactions. Also, leaving early is discourteous to the other players. It creates a loose culture where people get in the habit of thinking "I left a few seconds early, so what?" It's the slippery slope. Following the rules (the simple, simple rules) and waiting until the match is completely over shows you are serious and shows you have respect for the game. Think of it as a healthy tradition, not a rule.

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Re: How pickup kills tron

Post by szopin »

Ok, now I read it all, still seems awkward people seem more concerned about leaving early bans that are for 1 day (1h means 2 games in the meantime, what are we banning from again? if from playing pickup fort 1h is more than enough, make it 2 so it is painful as 4 games will go without those guys, this is still far from the problem, if you end up with 11/12 for 2h, more bans!)
Monkey wrote:
Wildcat wrote:2. Majority rules on server choice. Don't pick usa server if it's 10 v 2 eu. Most are considerate but it happens and makes a sucky laggy game.
Slightly complicated but doable. Everyone that armabot says is in the game would then have to message armabot with their choice of server. Once armabot receives everyone's decision
Eh? So one person not deciding on server keeps 11 on their toes? Not the best solution.
Monkey wrote:
Wildcat wrote:3. Don't ban for early exits unless they re add. I usually play late at night so the same 12 usually adds. I can see how this rule can be silly. However if someone leaves early and adds, I'm all for the penalty.
Several people have already explained why this used to be the case but is not any more. I'll explain it again:
When people leave early, other people follow. This can be because they believe they have missed the "Match Winner" message or that they believe that the people that have left early are going to add for the next game. Nobody knows in advance what people's intentions are when they leave early. Then you have the issue that some people leave early and change their mind about wanting to play in the next game (assuming there is space for them to play). All of this becomes far too complex for moderators to deal with. Note that moderators did originally try to only ban people for leaving early when they were adding for the next game but this turned out to be too troublesome, hence now anyone that leaves early is banned. It is so simple to just wait for the "Match Winner" message.
How is someone quitting a game and not readding causing a problem? If I get a call that my friends arrived early I will quit, ban me for weeks/months, not sure how this is going to fix your current game, plenty of looking for subs already is happening. How is it going to help you to have more 11/12 situations? I just don't see it and never seen avalanche of people quitting once someone said "Shit guys, sorry, gotta run (usually also includes something like: pls sub me, though I don't think this is a requirement for everyone to feel alright about outgrid situation vs ban)"

Edit: seriously though, the more you ban, the more are back to normal fort, make those eternal, connection drop, you are forever doomed/banned and welcome back to normal fort... in a couple of weeks pickup will be dead. Do it!

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delinquent
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Re: How pickup kills tron

Post by delinquent »

Vogue wrote:
I'm not gonna simply complain and not suggest an alternative, so why not PM these players and tell them they shouldn't leave early because it's against the rules, but as they haven't taken anyone else's spot, they won't be banned this time.
Are you still a pickup mod? If so, you should do this publicly as an example. That's if you don't do it already.

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Re: How pickup kills tron

Post by Monkey »

szopin wrote:the more you ban, the more are back to normal fort...... in a couple of weeks pickup will be dead. Do it!
No it won't. What you are failing to realise is that many people like the rules and approve of the bans. In fact, the only people that are going on and on and on about them are you and thump. If Pickup loses a small number of people who don't like the rules and bans then it will make it even better. Pickup isn't perfect but it's very good and some of the admins are working on improving it still. Let's not forget that these guys are moderating, providing servers and coding all for free, in their spare time!
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Snxpflash
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Re: How pickup kills tron

Post by Snxpflash »

Monkey wrote: the only people that are going on and on and on about them are you and thump


Perhaps you should take another gander. We're not the only ones who think "leaving after final score and before Match_Splash and "not" !add'ing should not be a punishable offense.

Monkey wrote:Pickup loses a small number of people who don't like the rules and bans then it will make it even better.
Speak for yourself. Also, you have no idea how many really great/fun players already avoid Pickup (some or entirely) due to certain 'unfun' aspects related to moderation and immature players. Would be really great to not a decline rather an influx of players in pickup.




Iv noticed I spent a good bit of time these last few days speaking more of the "problems" rather than my idea(s) for a solution. I apologize for my heated/passionate views. I've stated in the past I really love this game and enjoy the friendly competition! So, here's my take on what could benefit Pickup:


Potential PICKUP Rules


1) Early Leavers: Anyone leaving BEFORE finals score and failing to provide a sub = 1 day ban (Leaving before the end of the game has proven to be an insane annoyance for all those competing in said Pickup. Not only do they have to try and grab a quick sub, but in more likely cases finish the match with unbalanced teams. Also, in the event a player begins to build a reputation of leaving/RQ'ing mid match then much more severe discipline would be necessary.)

2) Leaving BEFORE MATCH_WINNER (but after final score) and CHOOSING 'NOT' to re-!add: anywhere between a 5min - 15min ban to inure all other players have ample opportunity to join the immediately following match. (If the Player_ Leaves between "Final score and MATCH_WINNER and CHOOSES to re-!add unfairly, they will be treated as an Early Leaver and disciplined accordingly.)

3) Captains: Possess the right to both pick their team as well as position placement (regardless of player preference, though Captain can be as strict or lenient as He chooses) Any player refusing to follow captains directions should be reported to a MOD where disciplinary action may be taken.

4) Players: Pickup is designed for 1 main reason, that is to promote a friendly and competitive 6 v 6 fortress competition, regularly. All participants are EXPECTED to play with seriousness. Screwing around (within reason.. it can be argued you can play around at times and have fun without sacrificing ones competitiveness) and/or sabotaging your team's chance to win should not be tolerated under any circumstances and any of the sort should be reported to a MOD.




I understand many of you will say "well that's cool and all but, its just too much additional stuff for mods to have to deal with". Which, I can understand and possibly agree with. If the problem is too few mods, then perhaps a vote for a few more (preferably a few for each relevant time zone) is not such a bad idea? Personally, I would volunteer my services to help out with the moderating as well as adding a MOD for the US players.

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Titanoboa
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Re: How pickup kills tron

Post by Titanoboa »

So, a new rule so you can leave a few seconds earlier?

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ogo
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Re: How pickup kills tron

Post by ogo »

Pickup used to be big because only the good players knew about it. They had gridstats to analyse and would play super focussed so they could watch their armaskill rise in contrast to the other good players

Now they're grumpy coz the noobs found out about it, gridstats disappeared and it's just as shit as public fortress/sumo. I have enjoyed a pickup game or two in my time, but I don't believe it should exist. Armagetron is already an unusual and highly-skilled game, it's not easy to get into it without sucking a lot for a long time. We're just putting barriers on the fortress and sumo community, and we don't know how many players who could have gotten into fort/sumo or even just armagetron have been deterred because they haven't been able to play. I've made this argument a hundred times before though, nothing changes

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