statement of unease

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statement of unease

Post by 2020 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:59 pm

As sinewav pointed out, it was not wise that I decided to make a private message public. Because I have not been able to reply to that thread, because it has been locked, I would like to say this.

1
I did not decide to make the message private, Phyto did. Just because he decided to, does not mean I must. I invited an open engagement. He threw a punch below the belt, I wanted to bring it to people's attention. That was all.
Perhaps not wise, but given the circumstances, I am still being straight and honest and open.
2
To be warned so aggressively by some respected members of the community seems out of place too. That there was a suggestion that I be banned for this, is... is... incredible.
3
I have not given underhand passes at any moderator, whoever they may be. It is unfortunate that when someone starts throwing around their weight, as phyto has done in the last thread, and it is allowed to occur, I simply want to see something happen that does not involve me being bashed, or the topic ending as dreadfully as it has.
4
It is recommended that I simply ignore this. This does not work. Have you been to a meeting, a town meeting, where someone just rants horrid stuff at high volume whenever you open your mouth. It ruins the entire ambience. I have ignored plenty of times in the past. This is a recurring problem. I am merely asking for a way out of this so that it is not repeated in the future.
5
I have received another PM that is simply acidic in its aggression. I don't think this should be tolerated by me, or by the community.

Given that this has raised the heckles of far too many people, I am happy to leave.

Please reflect on the innocence of my approach. The content of the original post, which was to share the experiences of a 6-year old, someone incapable of sharing their learning! I had thought that this might spring some kind of interest from some members of the community. I am sorry, and indeed saddened, that this has resulted in this level of... disorder.

There has been a loss of respect on my side for what is happening here. Something I do not understand has happened, not only in terms of the aggression from one person, but from how others have responded. I do not understand this, but it is beyond understanding. It is just plain wrong.
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Re: statement of unease

Post by Word » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:28 pm

<----insert thoughtful post here---->
Last edited by Word on Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: statement of unease

Post by Z-Man » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:15 pm

Ok, I'll ignore the fact that this is the second time in a week (hi, Word!) someone considers it a good idea to continue the discussion. It isn't.

Let me explain why we get mad when PMs get published. See, when two members fight publicly, they're not just arguing for each other; they are doing it for the audience. This makes the fight more agitated and lowers the chances anyone will back down. It also draws others into the fight who have nothing to do with it in the first place. Also, it derails threads. When you argue in PMs, none of that applies. When you publish a PM, you and only you are responsible for the damage it does.
2020 wrote:3
I have not given underhand passes at any moderator, whoever they may be.
Yes, you did. See, that's the thing about underhand veiled insults, you can always try to claim later they weren't. Don't worry, though, insulting moderators for incompetence is not only tolerated, it's practically expected.
2020 wrote:4
It is recommended that I simply ignore this. This does not work. Have you been to a meeting, a town meeting, where someone just rants horrid stuff at high volume whenever you open your mouth. It ruins the entire ambience. I have ignored plenty of times in the past. This is a recurring problem. I am merely asking for a way out of this so that it is not repeated in the future.
Sure it works fine. I'm not even using the board's 'enemy' function, yet I just ignore him every time he accuses us of focussing on gimmicky additions.
See, what Phyto gave you initially is a valid critique shared by other posters; that your observations made there are nothing terribly special. I'm not a fan of how he says things, mind you. Now you obviously think he's wrong. You made two mistakes: you singled him out in your responses, and you pulled the "It's because your brain lacks the capacity to understand" card. How you say things is much nicer than how Phyto acts, I'll give you that, but what you say is just as vile once you think about it. So you picked your fight there yourself.

There are essentially three valid ways to deal with criticism of the form you received:
1. Accept it as valid and change your position.
2. Reject it as heckling, ignore it.
3. Enter a rational discourse. If you think the problem is the others don't understand, explain yourself better.
2020 wrote:5
I have received another PM that is simply acidic in its aggression. I don't think this should be tolerated by me, or by the community.
Just like with regular posts, there is an exclamation mark icon below PMs you can use to report them. Use it. We can't normally read PMs, but reported ones are an exception. I'd advise Phyto to do the same with any PMs you sent so we have the full picture (dunno whether we get direct access to all of a conversation automatically).

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Re: statement of unease

Post by Kijutsu » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:13 am

phyto has an issue with nearly everyone he converses with but it's never his fault, don't worry, the mods are just very partial here. nothing of what you said was vile, please ignore zman.

(i hope i get banned for this post, like, forever.)

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Re: statement of unease

Post by Z-Man » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:53 pm

Word: your post here was fine, I was talking about the other thing.

Thanks for helping me demonstrate two of the points I made, Liz:
It also draws others into the fight who have nothing to do with it in the first place.
2. Reject it as heckling, ignore it.
Which I'm doing, apart from posting this obviously, so not really, but yeah. Oh, three:
insulting moderators for incompetence is not only tolerated, it's practically expected.

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Re: statement of unease

Post by 2020 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:59 am

Z-Man wrote:Let me explain why we get mad when PMs get published. See, when two members fight publicly, they're not just arguing for each other; they are doing it for the audience.
Not true in my case, I just want it to stop.
Z-Man wrote:
2020 wrote: I have not given underhand passes at any moderator, whoever they may be.
Yes, you did. See, that's the thing about underhand veiled insults, you can always try to claim later they weren't.
It was not an underhand pass. I was making a clear request:
"But quite frankly, if Z-man, or Epsy, or whoever is moderating is willing to take out various posts as the community attempt to step in and stop Phyto, then please do me the honour of deleting any post that Phyto writes in relation to my next post. I would like to share something I have found to be interesting, and it might be useful for the community of players who play this game. And I am afraid, that if Phyto is allowed to maul me, then the loss will not only be mine. Please consider this."
It is genuine request for moderators to use their power to prevent this from happening with a post I was intending in the future.
Z-Man wrote:
2020 wrote: It is recommended that I simply ignore this. This does not work. Have you been to a meeting, a town meeting, where someone just rants horrid stuff at high volume whenever you open your mouth. It ruins the entire ambience. I have ignored plenty of times in the past. This is a recurring problem. I am merely asking for a way out of this so that it is not repeated in the future.
Sure it works fine. I'm not even using the board's 'enemy' function, yet I just ignore him every time he accuses us of focussing on gimmicky additions.
See, what Phyto gave you initially is a valid critique shared by other posters; that your observations made there are nothing terribly special. I'm not a fan of how he says things, mind you. Now you obviously think he's wrong. You made two mistakes: you singled him out in your responses, and you pulled the "It's because your brain lacks the capacity to understand" card. How you say things is much nicer than how Phyto acts, I'll give you that, but what you say is just as vile once you think about it. So you picked your fight there yourself.
I was not picking a fight. I accept what I was drawing to (a six year old and language learning) is not important. My word for it was fragile.

I did not single him out. He blared, I tried to turn it around in a pleasant way. It escalated, and so on and so on, and here I am defending myself to your criticisms too.

I have not playing the "brain card", because my observation has little to do with intelligent, which Phyto clearly is. It was just an observation or insight I wanted to share.

And I know that replying to this is missing the point. You perceive my behaviour has been equally vile. This is now a matter of honour.
Z-Man wrote: There are essentially three valid ways to deal with criticism of the form you received:
1. Accept it as valid and change your position.
2. Reject it as heckling, ignore it.
3. Enter a rational discourse. If you think the problem is the others don't understand, explain yourself better.
This has never been a discussion of intelligence or reasoning. This has been to do with terrible behaviour. There is another option to your list, Z-man, who I have shown only respect to over the years.
4. Members of the community step in and do something to prevent this kind of repeating disorder from occurring.
I believe you have abused your power in this regard. Moderators, or indeed the triumvirate, are essentially held accountable for the order within the community. I have suffered badly in this exchange, and you have multiplied this. Although this post demonstrates point 3 in some way (perhaps not to the intellectual standard of either Phyto or yourself), I think it proves that there are some things which can not be solved by a purely cerebral nature. A wrong has been conducted here. This is not an intellectual debate.
Z-Man wrote:
2020 wrote: I have received another PM that is simply acidic in its aggression. I don't think this should be tolerated by me, or by the community.
Just like with regular posts, there is an exclamation mark icon below PMs you can use to report them. Use it. We can't normally read PMs, but reported ones are an exception. I'd advise Phyto to do the same with any PMs you sent so we have the full picture (dunno whether we get direct access to all of a conversation automatically).
I have not responded with any PM's to Phyto, I merely made his PM public, in the continued aim of transparency. Not because I want to play to an audience, but because I want to solve this in the only way it can be solved -- by witnesses.

Clearly we have different morals here. I am disheartened that my simple request (that you use your moderating powers to stop Phyto from posting on my next thread to prevent a complete derailing like this one) has met with such criticism -- not only by Phyto but by moderators. I have done no wrong here. I may not be as intelligent or rational, but my intentions have never been ill-meant. And I thought I had provided this community with something useful, and have been positive in my contribution over the years, and deserve to be respected at least as well as any new player who joins this community -- not worse!

I simply can not believe that my sharing of an innocent (and admittedly not particularly "intelligent") post could aggravate this level of response...
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Re: statement of unease

Post by Lucifer » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:05 am

I'd add to it that liz is totally correct that we are partial. We are human beings after all. If you want impartial moderation, write up a patch to phpBB and submit it.

We also don't try to be fair, just in case anybody tried to accuse us of that atrocity.

What we try to do is whatever it takes to keep productive discourse going. That means that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU is expected to TAKE ONE (or more) FOR THE TEAM at some point or other.

And like any other human being around here, we're not always successful, but I think that on the whole we do a decent job.
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is this the source of unease...?

Post by 2020 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:09 am

The only reason that comes to mind is that you too, Z-man, do not wish to read my next post, probably my final suggestion to take this game to the next level.

I know you wish to keep this game below the radar, but I see too much to gain socially if this game was professionalised -- with an open-source ethos. Can this be done? I have always thought so. And now that I have stumbled upon (not worked out, like some kind of uber-intelligent mind) a possible way for this to happen, I would like the opportunity to share it. That is all.

Then again, perhaps I have become too sensitive, or this forum and perhaps this community has become harsher and more aggressive in the time I have been away. Whatever the case, my suggestion has no possibility of being heard or read given such aggression from Phyto, the criticism of cynics (can you remember the criticisms that were levelled at the Tronic Spoon when it was first suggested?), and if you yourself are against it.

This may explain my deep unease, and why I have been willing to stand up against Phyto, and indeed you, Z-man. Again, I am willing to extend an offer to discuss this publically, to be recorded, in the interests of openness and transparency.
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Re: statement of unease

Post by Lucifer » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:16 am

We're not taking any sides in the fight between you and phyto, 2020. We're not.

But if you want to do the things you say you want to do, your actions need to bear that out, and that means ignoring Phyto when he rips into you. You need to take z-man's post a little more seriously and quit acting like an emo kid. You want results? Step up to the plate! Quit cowering and stand proud for what you believe.

I think we've had this conversation before, and since z-man's always pointing out that programmers don't like to repeat themselves, I suggest you start a new thread discussing the original idea, and ignore anybody who attacks you, but respond with civility and consideration to the criticisms you WILL receive. If you want to continue THIS discussion, you should know you're talking to emptiness, since we're already in a cycle of repeating ourselves, and I don't know about z-man, but I don't like doing it.
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Re: statement of unease

Post by 2020 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:18 am

Lucifer wrote:What we try to do is whatever it takes to keep productive discourse going.
I have offered a simple solution about continuing a discourse I started 6 years ago. I have asked that you stop Phyto from pouring such aggression into my next post.
Lucifer wrote:That means that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU is expected to TAKE ONE (or more) FOR THE TEAM at some point or other.
I am a team player. Anyone I have ever played with should testify to that. I have taken plenty for the team, in terms of sitting out, holing, and doing my best. I make up for my lack of skills by being the best team player I could be. But in relation to the whole community of players, I have taken one too many. I want this game to progress.
Lucifer wrote:And like any other human being around here, we're not always successful, but I think that on the whole we do a decent job.
Yes, on the whole you have. Regarding morals and behaviours, I have witnessed this community deal with rather complex issues, and you especially strike a strong and stable course. Regarding how this whole game and community can take the game further, I think we have all failed more than we have succeeded, and I will be the first to accept fault or lack of skill.
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Re: statement of unease

Post by Lucifer » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:23 am

2020 wrote:
Lucifer wrote:What we try to do is whatever it takes to keep productive discourse going.
I have offered a simple solution about continuing a discourse I started 6 years ago. I have asked that you stop Phyto from pouring such aggression into my next post.
As I said, I'm growing tired of repeating myself.

What you're asking for is going to require a great deal of leadership, leadership the likes of which I'm sure me and/or z-man can provide. However, we're both FREAKING BUSY with our regular lives. He just had a baby, and I just got married. I'm flipping hamburgers, my wife's working part-time in an office supply store, and we're living with my mom. I'm working part-time on a web browser game that I think is my best chance at economic independence, something I haven't had since before I got divorced, so I just don't have time to take your idea and run with it. You need leadership, and you're basically dumping an idea on us and asking us to run with it.

You want it to succeed? You need to step up and LEAD.

And you can't do that, you just can't do that if you can't figure out how to deal with phyto. Consider dealing with him the test of your mettle. If you can do that, you can do what it takes to take this game wherever the hell you want it to go. If you can't deal with him, you don't have what it takes. You just have another idea thrown on the pile and you're waiting for your champion to come along and deal with it, and I for one don't have the time.

You can quit blaming me for that, I've got real problems in my life I need to solve, and your initiative or whatever the hell it is isn't going to put food on the table for me right now.

So to be honest, I'll just let him do whatever he wants, and see if you can figure it out. That's the best contribution I can make for you.
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Re: statement of unease

Post by 2020 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:30 am

Lucifer wrote:We're not taking any sides in the fight between you and phyto, 2020. We're not.

But if you want to do the things you say you want to do, your actions need to bear that out, and that means ignoring Phyto when he rips into you. You need to take z-man's post a little more seriously and quit acting like an emo kid. You want results? Step up to the plate! Quit cowering and stand proud for what you believe.
I am not like you, Lucifer. I am not so full-frontal, all-in kind of guy. But neither am I cowering or acting like an emo kid. Read my post carefully, I am happy to have a conversation. I am proud of what I believe, and I have courage of my convictions. I am just not as... thick-skinned as you.
Lucifer wrote: I think we've had this conversation before, and since z-man's always pointing out that programmers don't like to repeat themselves, I suggest you start a new thread discussing the original idea, and ignore anybody who attacks you, but respond with civility and consideration to the criticisms you WILL receive. If you want to continue THIS discussion, you should know you're talking to emptiness, since we're already in a cycle of repeating ourselves, and I don't know about z-man, but I don't like doing it.
You were one of the greatest critics of the Tronic, right at the start, Lucifer. You were the biggest force that swayed the community towards taking the Tronic Spoon in the direction it did. Can you remember how that played out? You did not believe we could trust players to turn up at the right time. I went ahead anyway, and enough players did turn up and we conducted the first Tronic Ladle. I put that down to the players, not the system. The system was rudimentary. It was the players -- their honour, their self-discipline.

I am not particularly interested in criticism or defending myself. This forum, as it is rigged, is not appropriate for what I was going to suggest. I extend my invitation of openness and transparency to you, Lucifer. Let us see if you are willing to step up to the plate.
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Re: statement of unease

Post by Lucifer » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:38 am

2020 wrote: I am not particularly interested in criticism or defending myself. This forum, as it is rigged, is not appropriate for what I was going to suggest. I extend my invitation of openness and transparency to you, Lucifer. Let us see if you are willing to step up to the plate.
Look, I'm working as an assistant manager at a BURGER PLACE. I have to deal with shit every day that makes phyto look like a lightweight. In fact, I just pushed someone to quit today because HE couldn't take the criticism I was giving him. Tough shit, guy, he needed to do his job and we were freaking busy.

If you don't want to deal with criticism, then ignore it. Simple as that. But if you want to lead, you NEVER EVER DEFEND YOURSELF. You SEE that IN THIS THREAD. Neither me nor z-man are defending ourselves, we're telling you how it is and you just need to accept it. Yes, we've read your criticisms, and we've thought about them, guarantee. We're not total asses. But do you see either of us going defensive? Do you see us counter-attacking?

Nope.

And as for ME stepping up to YOUR plate, you made your own dinner. You need to eat it or throw it away. The responsibility for it is yours and yours alone.
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Re: statement of unease

Post by Kijutsu » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:39 am

so do you say "omg deal with liz/whoever yourself" to phyto when he gets called laufers or w/e he gets so pissed off about?

sounds like someone is getting special treatment

hint: its not 2020

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Re: statement of unease

Post by 2020 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:40 am

I hear you, Lucifer. Life isn't going to get much easier as we get older. Perhaps my ideas back then seemed like pie in the sky. They were, from a certain perspective, and they were not, from another. You've got to make decisions about you and your family. So do I.
Lucifer wrote: You want it to succeed? You need to step up and LEAD.
This is how I lead. It is not the kind of lead you are used to. I lead by following. That's what I do. I am not the best player, but I follow the best players. I am not the best coder, so I follow the best coders. I know I can't lead a community towards professionalism. I just don't have that way. But I can help it. That's what I did, and that's why Ladle worked, because I helped players self-organise. I shouldn't have to prove anything, since the proof is there -- again, not because I made the tronic ladle, but because there are players on the grid demonstrating incredible skills. The game kills. Accelerating due to proximity to a wall, is Z-man's killer design. Fortress zone settings, again Z-man's killer design. And for this game to take off -- and seriously, I thought it was game over when the new tron film came out, I am still amazed by it -- for this game to take off, means we don't have any team killers. Simple.
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