Armagetron T-Shirts!

General Stuff about Armagetron, That doesn't belong anywhere else...
Post Reply
User avatar
Infa(mous)
Round Winner
Posts: 255
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:27 pm

Post by Infa(mous) » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:26 am

we could make a photo-mosaic of the armagetron cycle w/ all the different lightcycle pictures we can find?

EDIT: I made one with like 6 bike pictures... But you get the idea. This one has super high color variation so I could pull it off with like 5 pictures, though...
Also, could people pass me some bike images to add to the mosaic?
Attachments
Mosaic.jpg
Mosaic.jpg
Last edited by Infa(mous) on Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
apparition
Match Winner
Posts: 628
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:59 am
Location: The Mitten, USA

Post by apparition » Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:10 am

Okay, FOR THE LAST TIME stop worrying about copyright infringement, trademarks, etc... For example:
Attachments
Pike Polo Logo
Pike Polo Logo
Superbad Movie Barcrawl
Superbad Movie Barcrawl

Crazy
Core Dumper
Posts: 106
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:24 am

Post by Crazy » Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:27 am

agreed, they didn't sue for making arma, they won't sue for making t-shirts

User avatar
sinewav
Graphic Artist
Posts: 6199
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:37 am
Contact:

Post by sinewav » Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:07 am

apparition wrote:Okay, FOR THE LAST TIME stop worrying about copyright infringement, trademarks, etc...
Dude, it's very, very important to consider copyrights. Besides, we don't even have a design yet. If you want a shirt with a copyrighted lightcycle, go ahead and print your own. I might even buy one as long as it isn't attached to Arma in an incriminating way. I for one am going to follow the lead of the devs, since it's they who actually have something to loose, no matter how unlikely it is (and I understand it's unlikely).

You would be more convincing if you actually posted a link to the law that backs up your claim. This is a serious game with serious legal considerations.
Last edited by sinewav on Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
apparition
Match Winner
Posts: 628
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:59 am
Location: The Mitten, USA

Post by apparition » Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:15 am

Whether or not you understand how unlikely it is for legal action to be taken against the developers of Armagetron, the shirt printing business is separate. You can follow the developers when developing the software, but when you're talking about all this copyright infringement stuff you're walking an invisible line between boundaries fabricated by a society that is scared of its own shadow. You don't have to worry about it and if you want to go look up the laws, go for it.

My company just printed 17,000 shirts for the Steelers AFC championship. We print for Reebok, ADIDAS, and Modest Mouse. I know the laws and I know what to worry about. Go look on CafePress and explain to me why the whole site isn't shut down because of all the infringing copyrights. You're imagining a lot of this.

Regardless, shirts are fun and no matter what, this process doesn't need to be stressful. Sorry to reiterate the same point over and over, but I'm just trying to get you to stop worrying so much and enjoy making the shirt and raising some funds. My bad.

User avatar
Lucifer
Project Developer & Local Moonshiner
Posts: 8610
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:32 pm
Location: Republic of Texas
Contact:

Post by Lucifer » Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:31 am

sinewav wrote: One has to wonder where the point is when something leaves private ownership and becomes a cultural artifact. I guess it's for the courts to decide.
That point is the expiration of the copyright, which is why so many of us are involved in the open source movement in the first place. Also why we object so strongly to the strongarm tactics of the movie/music industry groups.

Anyway, last time I read the federal copyright law, it said nothing about how much something had to be changed to not be considered a derivative work. That's a "guideline" that exists on the basis of case laws. Let's not forget that Disney has managed to successfully lobby to extend copyright law far beyond the original intent every time their precious Mickey Mouse copyright has come up for expiration.

Here's how I see it:

Yes, some of these ideas infringe Disney's copyright, and I don't care much what apparition says. His print shop may have no legal liability, but the customers that put together the order do. HOWEVER, and this is very important, no large company is going to go after a small group of people that get shirts printed that are potentially copyright infringing. This isn't a P2P case, and it's not a case where you're trying to sell the shirts to make money. If you want to setup a business selling TRON shirts without Disney's permission, then fear Disney. But if you're just getting a group of friends together to put in a print shop order, you're probably pretty safe. IF Disney even finds out about it, they're smart enough to know the PR damage they would receive by pursuing it is faaaaaaaar worse than any damages you may inflict by printing the shirts, and that quite the contrary, the more they ignore groups like us, the more we continue adding value to their TRON brand.

So legally, I would be with Lack, don't set up a business selling shirts that infringe on Disney's copyright, and otherwise wait until you get cease and desist orders. Maybe go through some small extra effort to state how you believe your use of the images qualifies under Fair Use (even if it doesn't, heh). Then, even if they send a c&d letter, they're very unlikely to sue if you just cease and desist.

However, stylistically, I wouldn't want a TRON shirt. I'd want an Armagetron Advanced shirt, of course, but not a TRON shirt.
Image

Be the devil's own, Lucifer's my name.
- Iron Maiden

Crazy
Core Dumper
Posts: 106
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:24 am

Post by Crazy » Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:32 am

maybe instead of selling the t-shirts (making a profit)
we could 'give them away' for every $x that they donate to the arma projects

its not breaking the copyright laws after all if we don't make a profit.


yes, yes, I'll get a link or something to prove my statements.....

but which country(s) are the dev's in?

User avatar
Lucifer
Project Developer & Local Moonshiner
Posts: 8610
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:32 pm
Location: Republic of Texas
Contact:

Post by Lucifer » Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:35 am

We're all over the place, and in the US, no money needs to change hands to infringe on a copyright.

Quite the contrary, damages can be claimed if they can show that you prevented them from making money with their copyrighted material. That's the foundation of the case law against P2P networks, in fact.

So, where are the damages? It's possible to infringe on somebody's copyright without actually causing damages, in which case all they can do is tell you to stop. Any court case involved would just be getting to court to order you to stop. If there's no damages, they can't be awarded any (ideally, anyway, it does come down to who has the best lawyers, of course).

Trademark is very different, though, but I don't think TRON is trademarked. I could be wrong about that. "Disney" is trademarked, of course.
Image

Be the devil's own, Lucifer's my name.
- Iron Maiden

Crazy
Core Dumper
Posts: 106
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:24 am

Post by Crazy » Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:34 am

ok, well, i think we can be pretty sure about not getting sued

if someones still unsure, go send an e-mail to disney asking for their permission to make the shirts.

anyway, an idea i had for the shirts was kinda a plaid, checkboard, grid (whatever its called) style shirt, with a few tron bikes running around it.
the walls can say in them armagetron or whatever.


who ever said they had to be t-shirts anyway?

could make hats(baseball and/or winter hats)
hoodies
wrist/sweat bands
normal shirts

anything really could be made into a arma themed piece of clothing

hmm, i wonder what a tron tie would look like.

then people could decide what they want.

User avatar
sinewav
Graphic Artist
Posts: 6199
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:37 am
Contact:

Post by sinewav » Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:17 am

apparition wrote:...but when you're talking about all this copyright infringement stuff you're walking an invisible line between boundaries fabricated by a society that is scared of its own shadow.
As a musician who has done a lot of sampling, I'm very familiar with copyright laws. And, I've worked for two different t-shit shops. I know this stuff. I'm also the one who said sell until we get a C&D.

But I really think we should focus on a design that say something about Armagetron, and not just slap a Syd Mead cycle on a shirt. There is no need to push the copyright issue when there isn't even a design. Sure, it may come down to using a copyrighted image, but let's worry about that when we get there. My official position is to always consider copyright laws and avoid potential problems, but if the issue of infringement or "fair use" becomes unavoidable, then do so with caution.

On the other hand appa, I really like your enthusiasm about the shirts! So, you don't have any designs of your own? Not even a suggestion for one? :)

User avatar
Z-Man
God & Project Admin
Posts: 11222
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:01 pm
Location: Cologne, Jabber: [email protected]
Contact:

Post by Z-Man » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:44 am

Lucifer wrote:Trademark is very different, though, but I don't think TRON is trademarked. I could be wrong about that. "Disney" is trademarked, of course.
It is trademarked, and google tells the story of them suing the makers of Robotron back then. They lost, though.

Laws here in Germany are basically thus: Copyright handles verbatim copies and modifications. As long as you don't use the actual works of others, you're not touched by it. So all our lightcycles aren't affected by it, they were recreated from scratch. Trademark law is much more treacherous: as soon as you qualify as a business and as soon as your actions may give the false impression you're somehow associated with trademark X, A THIRD PARTY can sue you for distorting the competition in an unfair manner. There's profitable law firms here that solely live from running around the web, finding violations and sending cease and desist orders, charging upwards of 500 Euros per 'client' (Yeah. To keep simple cases out of court, 'pay or we'll sue' blackmail is legal here). They focus on profitable mass cases, though.

Anyway, those silly laws don't apply to you, so while I try to keep out of anything that may give the impression of being business while we have 'tron' in the program's name, you guys go ahead.

User avatar
Tank Program
Forum & Project Admin, PhD
Posts: 6698
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:03 pm

Post by Tank Program » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:37 am

Maybe F!Infamous' front with the quote on the back. Or sinewav's with something that says Armagetron Advanced on the back. Maybe slap the URL on there somewhere? I'm not too fond of the mosaic idea.

It's probably best to keep the whole t-shirt thing as a separate user enterprise. The project would definitely appreciate any money donated by such an enterprise, but I don't think we can do this officially as part of the project. Everyone seems to have a different idea of the legal issues involved, and in my mind that's more than enough to keep it from being official.

Of course, I still would want a shirt that shouts "Armagetron" out.
Image

User avatar
sinewav
Graphic Artist
Posts: 6199
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:37 am
Contact:

Post by sinewav » Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:30 pm

Z-Man wrote:Anyway, those silly laws don't apply to you,...
Good, now that the legal argument is settled let's focus on designs! :D

So, we're thinking a 2-sided shirt now? Plus, the shirt should include the name AmagetronAD and/or the website somewhere. And any design using the Syd Mead cycle is fair, but ideally it should be heavily focused on design elements from Arma. Am I right about this?

We should try and crank out a few more ideas. I don't think any of them hit it just yet. I like Lack's first draft. Maybe something like that on the front with quote and website on the back?

User avatar
sinewav
Graphic Artist
Posts: 6199
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:37 am
Contact:

Post by sinewav » Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:32 pm

lack-a-variant.
Attachments
aatdesign-6.png

epsy
Adjust Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 2006
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:02 pm
Location: paris
Contact:

Post by epsy » Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:39 pm

The arms seem a little too thick

Post Reply