Double Binding is the crutch of the weak

General Stuff about Armagetron, That doesn't belong anywhere else...
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nicolas.b
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Post by nicolas.b »

whatever what?

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Speedracer
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Post by Speedracer »

Sorry. I didn't mean you... I really don't know what I meant. I have just been in a whatever kind of mood.

GO DB GO! 8)
We are here today to talk about tomorrow. Yesterday is gone and tomorrow will soon be today.

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nicolas.b
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Post by nicolas.b »

i see. hope it passes, then.

join us for some gunbound sometime? :)

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Post by 2+2=5 »

I started playing this game back in the golden age, before people figured out the double bind trick. I think i took a break from the game for a while, as I often do for sanity reasons, and when i came back it seemed like the entire play style of the game had changed. The first few games i was pissed after getting killed a few times, and starting accusing people of cheating and using macros... :) Then someone politely informed me of this new trick, and i began experimenting with it myself. In the beginning I had similar thoughts as DL, that it ultimately weakens the strategic value of the game, as when there used to be situations i could outplay someone along the wall, and KNOW they were screwed, now the could use the double bind trick and escape the situation unharmed. It definately raised the bar in terms of what it takes to deres another program, thats for sure

but after a while i got used to using double binds, and realized that it opened up the game to more diverse styles, and crazy situations. One of my favorite and most effective techniques now is to use double binding to create awesome slingshots to fling me about at amazing speeds, often to my death, but man is it entertaining. I found it actually takes a lot of skill to use the double bind correctly in this instance, because once you are moving fast you need to time the double turn *just* right to escape those tight turns. It still annoys me sometimes, especially when people use it against the wall, but overall I enjoy the way its changed the game

Bottom line is fun, and i think the DB trick makes things more interesting in a lot of ways. It would be sweet to have a server option to disable DBs though, as it would br a nice change of pace to be able to relive the olden days everyonce in a while.

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chills
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Post by chills »

Hey 2+2=5, good to see you here. :D

Reading your post, I just wanted to make one note.

Doing "180s", whether it's on the arena wall or player walls, does not usually require double-bound turns. Personally, I never use double-bound turns to make 180s. I find that a quick double-tap of my keys is much more reliable on the servers I frequent, but maybe that's just me. (By "reliable" I mean: not smashing my cycle against the wall or having a ridiculous bounce).
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Post by Thak »

The game would be more fun for me, and for other normal non doublely binders if no one double binded, and just played fairly.


Ok, the double binding helps you guys win more, and you guys have more fun - but it does the negative for everyone else.

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Speedracer
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Post by Speedracer »

Oh, boo hoo... :twisted:

When I see DL's IC saying that db is for the weak, I just admit that I am weak. The second I knew about it I was hooked. So am I guilty of playing unfairly just because I wanted to turn faster. My first key bindings were left and right arrows for turn and z for glance back, x for glance left, and c for glance right. Space bar is my brake. I remember trying so hard to tap left or right as quickly as possible but I could never turn as well as n54. But I understand the difference between turning well and playing well. db doesn't make someone a good player, it is what you do with it that makes people wanna kill you. 8)
nicolas.b wrote:join us for some gunbound sometime?
let me look into it and the thread on it and I will get back to you. :wink:
We are here today to talk about tomorrow. Yesterday is gone and tomorrow will soon be today.

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RUDEBOY!
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Post by RUDEBOY! »

Good to see you here 2+2 and good response

nick, havent seen you in a while, ive been off for 2 weeks, next week im back at camp looking after kids then im done and can get back in the game, ill look out for you when i play

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Post by Marrow »

eggcozy wrote:Won matches and ladder scores are a joke and may not be used, especially ladder scores. Case in point. Lets look at the most recent ladder scores on 2.6 darnish.
31 eggcozy 63.68
32 Digital Logic 62.9563

20 minutes before this standing, I was at place 150, with an ultimate low in the 20 minutes of 183
I assume that you believe you are a top tron player, so with your rational so am I. Oh, but I double bind.
I'm rather thankful eggcozy pointed this out. The scoring system is very flawed. I think an appropriate solution would be to make the scoring less fluid - meaning more difficult to climb up or drop down the ladder. This is an easy change, as it should only involve changing the mathematical equations in the code that are associated with the scoring -- instead of losing whole points or gaining whole points, you'd gain or lose maybe 0.2 points.

This would make for a more accurate indication of a player's ability. You'd rack up points over a long period of time and, if you had a bad day or two, you wouldn't drop as much down the ladder.

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Post by Speedracer »

But I think the real question here, Marrow... :wink: is whether or not you double bind or not. 8)
(joking, BTW- good idea about scoreing system. I have always had a problem with it. Especially for armagoshdarn. Even though that ladder was our center of the universe. :)
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Post by ishAdmin »

I'm going to chime in here. (first all, where is the fun in double binding?)

I think the ladder scoring should be revised. As I recall, there is a control for the percentage of your score that gets thrown into the pot for others to capture. In the very least, that percentage could be lowered. The ladder would change more slowly. If I was to make this change, I would zero out the ladder at ish so everyone starts at the same place. I think I can zero the ladder without removing changing the rounds/matches won. Maybe the ladder should be zero'd on a monthly basis and the winners at the end of the month posted on the stats pages.

I would appreciate feedback on this, and maybe I should actually start a new thread for this. If fact, I will, look for a thread called 'new ladder formula'.

regards,
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Marrow
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Post by Marrow »

Speedracer wrote:But I think the real question here, Marrow... :wink: is whether or not you double bind or not. 8)
Ha, I think you know the answer to that.

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Post by Marrow »

ishAdmin wrote: If I was to make this change, I would zero out the ladder at ish so everyone starts at the same place. I think I can zero the ladder without removing changing the rounds/matches won.
Yes, this can be done. You could manually edit the ladder file or write a bash shell script to clean it out automatically.

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just my 3 cents maybe 4

Post by Seleucus »

Its been awhile since i checked forums, but i was glancing around and found this topic, very interesting...

I had a long thing written on this and then just deleted, wasn't worth arguing, we all feel the way we do, it is an opinion thing... However at this point in time the best players are not double binders... whether people want to admit it or not the non double binders still have the edge, although the gap may be closing, however the non double binders have an advantage, they sseem to adapt faster and they always on the offensive it seems, if the good players stopped trying to kill and let others try kill them it would be different story, it is easy to corner somoen who follows but who has more skill the one who always corners or the one who makes the corner 50 percent of the time, and before any of you tear me up, i dont' care... i wasn't tryint to me a lock box arguement, so leave it as my opinion... o ya and i agree te score system is dumb, proves nothing.

Thansk for reading, maybe i wil check back on this...

-Seleucus

P.S. Just and interesting idea, lets settle it, double binders vs non on a server, we have had tourny before why not one with these teams, perhaps myself(Seleucus), Digital Logic, Alagan (has many names, but if he there he is the one winning) vs any double binders who want to try us... little cocky aren't we... haha just an idea, and then we can end this debate...

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Re: just my 3 cents maybe 4

Post by eggcozy »

Seleucus wrote: P.S. Just and interesting idea, lets settle it, double binders vs non on a server, we have had tourny before why not one with these teams, perhaps myself(Seleucus), Digital Logic, Alagan (has many names, but if he there he is the one winning) vs any double binders who want to try us... little cocky aren't we... haha just an idea, and then we can end this debate...
I'd love an informal tournement. I could host on Breakfast if we could figure some way to handle the occasional dropped player. I'd be ok with just playing it through and assume that with a 100 point match, there would be enough playing time to determine the winner.

The only other issue I would see is that my ping is always very low, which could be an unfair advantage (If I get chosen to be in the elite db squad :)
Settings that I would change to make it fair for nondber's: Higher cycle_delay (.06?), slower accel (26), lower rubber (6?).

One other thing. I also wouldn't mind having a singles tourney with even numbers of dbers and non-dbers ... considering the different styles involved with teams and singles matches.

One last note, I'm moving in 2 weeks, so Breakfast will probably go down for an indetermined time. Next weekend would be the only time I could host.

cheers

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