Double Binding is the crutch of the weak

General Stuff about Armagetron, That doesn't belong anywhere else...
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Digital Logic
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Double Binding is the crutch of the weak

Post by Digital Logic »

You know.. I love when people who do something they instinctively KNOW is wrong try to justify it with erroneous conclusions and Swiss cheese logic.

First thing..
FACT: the vast majority of top players don't use this BUG. (Yes, it is a bug.. but more on that later..)

FACT: "When all you own is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail." People who use this BUG rely on it so heavily that they don't play intelligently nor gain education in other game skills (such as good camera use)

After noting these two FACTS I adopted the catch phrase " Double Binding is the crutch of the weak"

(Short Definition)
BUG: Any unintended outcome of a process or procedure. (Used mostly in reference to computers.)

NOTE.. it does not have to be a fatal error or a lack of functionality to be a bug.

There are some "undocumented features" in games and DVD's. These are INTENDED, and fall into a few categories such as Easter Eggs or console commands

Argument of the opposition:
"But the game comes with several keys assigned to the same function"

Yeah and you car comes with two methods for braking. Your point?
Now boys and girls.. take a look at the key mapping.. (I know this is a stretch for you folks.. having to THINK RATIONALLY)

Now what do you notice?? OH YES.. that's right it's setup for right hand AND left hand keyboard play.

So do we think you were suppose to use the mouse and the keyboard for the same function during the game?? OF COURSE NOT.

It just makes it easier for you as a player to jump in the game without remapping the keys during your first time playing. The author gives all the reasonably possible combinations to allow the player to get up and going quickly.

You'll often see this in FPS games where they have the X-Game default of key mapping and the Y-Game default of mapping in addition to setting your own preferences. These games are a bit more polished then our beloved Armagetron, and thus don't allow you to set conflicting or double settings.

Now you guys have taken what was created as an ease-of-use feature and twisted it to become a way to support your lack of fortitude in learning the finer points.

But enough about your problem.. lets talk about the other type.

Some people admit that's it's a bug, and still use it. I at least have some mild respect for them. They know what they are and they don't try and hide it with sophomoric comments.

The problem is... They still don't develop other skills which require more time to acquire but are infinitely more useful.

In the end the prolifiration of it's use has only created a generation of players that are so easy to defeat I've never been on the top of so many ladders at once!

Some would say that this should make me happy, but for a lion of my appetite there is no joy in killing a wounded gazell.

In the end the two facts still remain and.....
Double Binding is STILL the crutch of the weak.


...
DL
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Tank Program
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Post by Tank Program »

I played for 2 years before I found double binding... It's allowed me to add some unique moves and strategy to my play. I can play equally well with just one hand because, well... I don't always feel like two hands and paying that much attention to the game...
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Post by eggcozy »

There are so many holes in your argument, it's just silly.
You have no evidence for that "facts" you state. top tron players? Silly question. Can't prove it. Host a tourney and get back to me. Thanks.

I don't think you are in a position to to comment on the ability of double binders. I can count on one hand the number of times that I have seen you play more than one match. Most of the time its a few rounds and you leave.

You don't understand the way many double binders play. I'm not speaking about all. There are many annoying doulbe binders who's sole strategy is to 180 grind to kill people, but also many who use it in fascinating ways.

There are a large number of people who have multiple modes of playing tron. I understand you are one-dementional, but there are others who actually enjoy the complexities of mazes, who enjoy jousting instead of running as you are so often accused of, or who just like to do things with their bike that hardly anyone else could do. It's not always about winning. Most of my playing involves the question, "I wonder if I can get out of this?", or "Let's see what this baby can do"

On that note, given a competitive environment, many double binders would either play on par with you, or defeat you handily. It's often enough for a stranger as yourself to win a couple matches to put us in a competetive mode, but alas, you never stay that long.

I double bind. You have never asked for my keyboard setup. You are not in a position to say that part of my game does not focus on good camera use. you may not state this as a fact.

Ok, i quit. If I get anymore energy to write on this topic I might add more, but it's just so silly. You make no sense.

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Digital Logic
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Post by Digital Logic »

eggcozy wrote: There are so many holes in your argument, it's just silly.
hmm lets see how many you can find..
eggcozy wrote: You have no evidence for that "facts" you state. top tron players? Silly question. Can't prove it. Host a tourney and get back to me. Thanks.
Well that's what we have ladder pages and high scores for. The majority of the players in the top ten in ladder & matches won don't double bind. When I first started thinking about this DB thing I actually viewed the scores the servers I've visited. That actually helped cemet the position in my mind. Looks like it's proved, in undeniable recordings even.
eggcozy wrote: I don't think you are in a position to to comment on the ability of double binders. I can count on one hand the number of times that I have seen you play more than one match. Most of the time its a few rounds and you leave.
Wow you're just full of fallacy today. Wrong on both parts, but more on that later, lets stay on topic for now. Too bad you're argument so far has been against me, and not the subject at hand. Looks like you lose another one.
eggcozy wrote: You don't understand the way many double binders play. I'm not speaking about all. There are many annoying doulbe binders who's sole strategy is to 180 grind to kill people, but also many who use it in fascinating ways.
Sure and the use of a gun at a boxing match is fascinating.. it just doesn't fit within the confines of the rules. Where were you going with this vein of logic? Besides, seems like I understand them quite a bit. I manipulate them on a regular basis.
eggcozy wrote: There are a large number of people who have multiple modes of playing tron. I understand you are one-dementional, but there are others who actually enjoy the complexities of mazes, who enjoy jousting instead of running as you are so often accused of, or who just like to do things with their bike that hardly anyone else could do. It's not always about winning. Most of my playing involves the question, "I wonder if I can get out of this?", or "Let's see what this baby can do"
Hmm.. well lets see. Are these the same people who say "owned U!" when someone smacks into their wall by accident. Seems like those who don't play well use this guise and then handily throw it off upon convenience of the moment. Seems that they want to win just as much as the next guy. That line of reasoning is long dead though, nice try.
eggcozy wrote: On that note, given a competitive environment, many double binders would either play on par with you, or defeat you handily. It's often enough for a stranger as yourself to win a couple matches to put us in a competetive mode, but alas, you never stay that long.
Lets deal with this one in two parts. First bit is easily remedied. Even on your OWN server with its speeds set so high they VASTLY favor double binding, I've been at the top of the ladder more than a few times, and I'm consistently in the top 10. So even by your own "stacked deck" server.. I'm still cleaning house.

Second bit. "Put you in a competitive mode??" hahaha Now THAT'S hilarious. Usually halfway through my first match I have everyone saying "gang up on Digital" (which I love! Those are my best rounds!) Not to mention the fact that it's an online competitive game. Rarely have I seen people NOT trying to remove the other players. Just because they don't do it well, doesn't mean they aren't trying.
eggcozy wrote: I double bind. You have never asked for my keyboard setup. You are not in a position to say that part of my game does not focus on good camera use. you may not state this as a fact.
Never did I say that ALL of those who double bind don't use a given aspect of the game, camera or otherwise. Apparently in your rabid hate you were unable to read my post with rational eyes. Go back and read it again.
eggcozy wrote: Ok, i quit. If I get anymore energy to write on this topic I might add more, but it's just so silly. You make no sense.
I agree you should quit. Until you have time to reread my post with eyes unclouded by guilt or anger. and... Your right, it is silly.. silly that you attempt to support an undefendable position. This is what we call a tactical error. So far you have spent more time attacking me then the point raised. The reasoning you've used was groundless and easily dispersed with rational thought and factual example.

Now the off topic bit that you so desperately attempted to use against me. The "You don't stay online" Statement. Here are my simple rules for staying on a server, also known as the "I'm I still having fun?" query.

1. Does the server setup make sense? ( I hate world-sized arenas or "boost" servers. )
2. Are there other engaging players? (If I win three matches in a row, it's time to leave and find other quarry. It also gives other folks a chance at winning and keeps that server alive with the same skill level of players.)
3. Is the server playable? (this is a little bit more tricky, but generally if I can reasonably anticipate the lag, I stick around. Lag that varies wildly annoys me. After a week on a server I can usually figure out where it gets to be too many clients / per time of day.)

I've been known to leave in the middle of a match I'm winning because I've stopped having fun. I've also spent DAYS on servers at places I was losing horridly at. Goshdarn and a few servers before it had figured out how to get their system, connection, and arena settings "right". This is of course highly subjective to the individual, but there is a broad general consensus.

Due to my competitive nature I have a lower tolerance for things that effect my condition but are out of my control. Knowing this about myself allows me to remove myself from a situation before it becomes greatly negative.

Lately, there hasn't been a server I can enjoy for more than an hour or two. That combined with the fact that I have other pressing concerns, doesn't afford me the freedom to play as long as I'd like. Rest assured if I discover another server I enjoy, I'm sure I'll spend more time on it. Right now there are only 4 servers I frequent, and 2 of those are often down. None of the 4 have found that magic setup that works for them, but at times they're playable.

For you to make a statement that I'm not online long enough seems comical. You haven't the slightest idea how often or for how long I'm online. Seems like you're curse with a small sample problem. You assume that I don't spend time anywhere because I don't spend time when you're around.

Regardless, even if your inaccurate statement was true, it only lends itself to my argument further. If I'm not around often, and consider the total matches won and ladder standings I have, I must win every time I play.

So now you stand in direct contradiction of yourself. Either I must be around often or I must win often. ( Actually.. it's both.. =) )

But... I digress.... In the end, I've been playing this game for so long and I've logged up enough hours that I no longer feel the need to play when I'm not having fun.

...
DL
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Post by Digital Logic »

BTW.. Tank.. Thank you for demonstrating my points.

First off: You were playing for two years BEFORE you used DB. So would you say it's the two years of experience that make you a good player.. or DB?

Secondly, you admit that when you're feeling lazy is when you DB. Exactly! Some people just feel lazy more often then others.

Now one could easily draw a correlation between this behavior and that of those people who use cheat codes in single player games.. They don't want to put in the effort to solve the puzzle or think through the tactical strategy necessary to win the RTS.

Hopefully now you see my point. It's the experience learned and the cunning and strategy used that successfully win matches.. not DB.
Those who use DB do so because they're trying to find a way to win the game without using the aforementioned strategy and cunning. Usually.. it goes very bad for them.

Thanks you for your assistance.. heck people will soon think paid you to set up those easy subjects. (Honestly I didn't.. he mentioned that stuff of his own free will.)

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DL
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Post by nicolas.b »

well there's some passion in this argument, and it's always fun to see passion. still, more or less i have to come down on the side of eggcozy.

DL, i think you are on the right track when you recognise the merits of mastering single-key play supplemented with double-stroke play (double-binding). where you go astray IMO is when you make a judgement on people who supposedly use the second without understanding the first.

people play the game for different reasons and take an approach that works for them. if they choose to double-bind, then 'good for them'. there are so many areas of the game to master that them taking a bit of a shortcut in one particular area is superfluous to the overall result IMO. if they are a top player, they are a top player, regardless of stats or the details of whether they double-bind or not.

in short, it takes a lot more than double-binding to get good at the game, altho i am referring mainly to servers that have some kind of key-delay enforced, which in actuality is most servers.

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Post by Tank Program »

I mentioned those things because they are true. I can play anyway I want, heck, I've even played with my toes. (Though that doesn't turn out very well.) I can play with either single or double binds. I've been playing years. I've actally won single bind tournaments at camps I've been at. (Although there wasn't very good competition really...) My overall point is you can play the game anyway you want to. You can view your competition anyway you want to. I would not say DB is a "crutch" it is a style of play. You play your style, other people play theirs. If theirs is DB and yours is not, it's hardly fair to call them 'weak' as you don't know about them in all truth. You can't verify what they're doing. In all reality DB does not really have an effect on how well someone does- that comes from practice. (And I might mention I'm out of practice... I haven't been playing a lot for a while...)

Anyway... I don't really care what you think. I've established Armagetron as a way to have some fun for a short period of time when I can think of nothing else todo. I do not care how others play, I just play to have fun.
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Post by chills »

Complaining about other people's playing styles is a crutch of the insecure.

DL, with all due respect, I'm not totally convinced that you're even capable of distinguishing between turns made with double-bind and those not made with double-bind. Why do I say this? You and I were playing on Breakfast Burrito the other day and when I killed you one round, you were quick to blurt out your new slogan about double-binding. The thing is, I didn't double bind.. It makes me wonder if you're just prematurely accusing people who kill you on the grid of being double-bind "cheaters" simply because you can't imagine that they'd be able to beat you fair and square. (That's not so hard to imagine, actually, and we've all known for a long time your tendency to be incredulous when things don't go your way; "?????" anyone?).

You left in the middle of a match complaining about one thing or another, and shortly afterwards you posted on these forums to complain about the settings on Breakfast Burrito, a server which (in defiance of all your logic) a lot of us have fun on. But hey, you're allowed to dislike settings, which is why there are other servers out there, and even the ability to create your own.

If double-binding is not a big part of your game, do what I do. Anyone who knows my playing style knows that I only use double-bind turns on the one 'darnlike server where it has a pronounced effect ('ish 2.6). Double-binding is not my favorite part of the game, which is why I prefer to play on different servers where the turn delay is set higher. When I'm on ish 2.6, however, I fully accept that double-bound turns are part of the game, and the regulars there are pros at it, incorporating it into their gameplay and strategy in ways that make my head hurt.

DL, we all know you're a good player, better than most, so you don't need to keep reminding us about it here. While I appreciate your concern that players who use double-binding will become one dimensional and never achieve bigger and better things, I would apply that argument to all aspects of player strategy--people who can only grind well, people who only use 180s, people who only use speed kills, people who only use big boxes, people who only enter boxes. Here's the thing, though. If a certain strategy (i.e. using double-bind a lot) is truly weak, people will eventually get a clue once they get killed over and over again. Getting killed a lot forces people to adjust their strategy in order to get better. So go ahead and keep killing other players; it's natural selection at work. And if you find that you're the one getting killed, maybe it's you who needs to change strategies, and not them.
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Post by Speedracer »

Wow chills... That was a great response. I fully agree. 8)
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Post by Tank Program »

Really, really, great response chills.
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Post by Speedracer »

Not to rule out DL's slighty misguided yet witty remarks that seem to have struck a nerve somewhere in the tron sector. 8)
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Post by eggcozy »

DL, I'll summarize so you might understand superior logic. I have been trained in the ways of the logic, and I can teach you many things.
You should understand that I am not defending or stating my reasons for supporting double binding. I am only claiming that your evidence may not be used in a discussion on the merits of double binding.

You: The vast majority of top players don't use this BUG
Me: This may not be used in discussion, not because it is false, but because it is indeterminable. If the top tron players can not be determined, then it can not be used as a defense against double binding.
You: It IS determinable in the form of won matches and ladder scores
(new) Me: Won matches and ladder scores are a joke and may not be used, especially ladder scores. Case in point. Lets look at the most recent ladder scores on 2.6 darnish.
31 eggcozy 63.68
32 Digital Logic 62.9563

20 minutes before this standing, I was at place 150, with an ultimate low in the 20 minutes of 183
I assume that you believe you are a top tron player, so with your rational so am I. Oh, but I double bind.

Here is another one just for grins, matches won.
28 eggcozy 108
33 Digital Logic 99

I would also like to direct you to the discussion on top 15 tron players. I would guess that the number of people mentioned in that thread
is closer to 50 than 15. Also, db hit mainstream in the last 4-6 months. The standings that you state are quite old when db was rare.


You: People who use this BUG rely on it so heavily that they don't play intelligently nor gain education in other game skills (such as good camera use)
Me: I touched on your lack of knowledge of my camera use and my key settings, and my game skills.
You: Never did I say that ALL of those who double bind don't use a given aspect of the game, camera or otherwise.
(new) Me: OK, so let me phrase what you are saying in a way that actually makes sense with no hidden meaning.
a. There exists double binders who use aspects of the game such as camera or otherwise ( You did not admit that it was good camera use)
b. Most double binders do not play intelligently and are not educated in any game skills except double binding. (hehe you implied db was a skill).

I could say the exact same thing and replace double binders with "people who do not double bind" ... or ... "people who are red" and it would still be correct.

Simply state that all you have are opinions and move on.

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Post by RUDEBOY! »

I don't know if it has been said yet, im far too tired to read every response in detail.

I don't personally use double binding, I tried it once and it really didn't benifit my playing style at all because I rarely use fast turn arounds and the like also, I have become accustomed to my reflexes and how they play out during the game and so i know how fast i can u turn where and have played that way for so long having u turns that care exactly the same gives me no benfit. I can't make an opinion on whether or not double binding is in fact a bug, the only person who can tell you that is the programmer and designer. Many colleagues of mine within the game use double binding and many don't, it's a matter of personal preference. I have watched many people use double binding and find that it offers no unfair advantage it's just a tool. So my opinion is use it or don't but don't complain, people have the right to choose, and they have their right to an opinion aswell but no one wants an opinion shoved down their throats.

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Post by nicolas.b »

sorry to hijack this thread, but... how are you, rude? how is the summer internship working out? the kids under control and all?

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Post by Speedracer »

whatever...
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