I wanna know why I'm being kicked off

Tigers Network and other servers hosted by the same fellow.

Moderator: Tank Program

User avatar
Lucifer
Project Developer
Posts: 8640
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:32 pm
Location: Republic of Texas
Contact:

Post by Lucifer »

ishAdmin wrote:of course I realise that (but I'm now motivated to build one out of ttl logic! :))

But a computer is doing a lot of things at the same time. I would expect it to be slower. This is why I was wondering if it's ever been tested. I'm wondering if what I suspect is true or not.
There's too much variance to be able to say with absolute certainty that one is faster than the other.

I've heard it said that if you get a cheap, high speed switch and stick a 486 running Linux as your router, you'll get better performance than from a standard consumer-grade Linksys or D-Link or whatever. You also gain a firewall, traffic shaping, IDS, and so forth. So you could give your KazAa packets higher priority and have your router automatically lower them for Tron, and possibly even customize how packets to tron servers are sent for even better ingame performance. (theoretically)

But a high-dollar Cisco router will beat the hell out of any/most PCs, they have a high-performance custom kernel. You could trim a BSD kernel or Linux and possibly get to where Cisco's at (I believe they started with BSD code for their router kernel).

ANd on and on and on.

Basically, hardware is fast enough and the internet complex enough that there's no way to define "faster". What's faster in your environment might be too slow in mine.

How you measure raw speed, now, I understand the routers and switches themselves are faster than the lines themselves are capable of taking, but I don't know this for a fact.
Image

Be the devil's own, Lucifer's my name.
- Iron Maiden
ishAdmin
Match Winner
Posts: 625
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 12:11 am
Contact:

Post by ishAdmin »

I'm not thinking on that scale of things, just the home consumer level. How does a linksys, dlink etc. cheapy router/hub compare with windows internet connection sharing. My only planned measurement was the hop time.

But I laughed out loud when mentioned giving kazaa packets higher priority. durn funny stuff :P
Image
User avatar
Lucifer
Project Developer
Posts: 8640
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:32 pm
Location: Republic of Texas
Contact:

Post by Lucifer »

ishAdmin wrote:I'm not thinking on that scale of things, just the home consumer level. How does a linksys, dlink etc. cheapy router/hub compare with windows internet connection sharing. My only planned measurement was the hop time.

But I laughed out loud when mentioned giving kazaa packets higher priority. durn funny stuff :P
In that case, probly immeasurable for Linux, insanely high for Windows. :) Recall the layers, the kernel only has to get the packet from the hardware layer, decode it to figure out where it's going, and route it, changing the packet for NAT if need be. Linux's IP stack is supposed to be as close to the metal as possible, and the only thing Microsoft ever put close to the metal was DirectX. Their IP stack was in turn hacked on. So I'm just guessing, now, that there would be a noticeable difference (up to 25ms) in a Windows router compared to a Linux router (where the difference might only be 3ms, and your ping will vary enough because of internet weather that you wouldn't notice).

I'm just guessing, though. The only way I know to test is to stick a Linux router in the middle and log ingoing/outgoing packets and all sorts of stuff. Maybe someone knows an easier way?
Image

Be the devil's own, Lucifer's my name.
- Iron Maiden
User avatar
root down
Round Winner
Posts: 344
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:46 am
Location: closer
Contact:

Post by root down »

i don't know about you guys, but whenever i play armagetron i have an overriding urge to download massive amounts of pornography.
stakes is high
User avatar
n54
MVP
Posts: 1587
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 12:40 pm

Post by n54 »

i <3 Cisco IOS

are you guys talking about software routers as pc's with multiple nics? it's not a fair comparison... (although such pc-routers are good if you just need a cheap local (lan) router and have a box you can *nix). but if you don't have a spare box you only need to spend about 300$ (price has probably dropped a lot) and you get the same with dedicated routing hardware, a (Cisco) warranty etc. and in a tiny box. remember that you don't need any router at all unless you're doing subnetting of your lan (i.e. it's really big which means it's a big organisation or company) otherwise a 30$ switch is usually all that's necessary (and faster if you just have one subnet).

anyone know what happened to that open source cisco-clone? *forgot name*
ishAdmin
Match Winner
Posts: 625
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 12:11 am
Contact:

Post by ishAdmin »

Around these parts you do need a router too hook up extra puters, as the isp won't let you have more than one IP unless you pay them extra bucks (if at all).
Image
User avatar
iceman
Reverse Adjust Outside Corner Grinder
Posts: 2448
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 9:54 am
Location: Yorkshire, England. Quote: Its the fumes, they make one want to play
Contact:

Post by iceman »

TTL + 5v = sexy hot hardware *drools 8)

:lol: :lol:
Image He who laughs last, probably has a back-up
Image
Image
sorry about the large animated gif
User avatar
n54
MVP
Posts: 1587
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 12:40 pm

Post by n54 »

ishAdmin wrote:Around these parts you do need a router too hook up extra puters, as the isp won't let you have more than one IP unless you pay them extra bucks (if at all).
ok around here the connection device (i don't like calling *dsl boxes routers) gets the ip and one is free to use dhcp or a(ny) manual subnetting on the lan side.

i might be misunderstanding you but are you saying that your connection has the same ip on the outside and the inside? usually your "router" has 10.0.0.1 on the inside and that's one huge subnet, or even a lot of big subnets if you so wish with additional routers since it's class A (192.168.0.0 is a class C ip and much much smaller). anyway, if that's locked down i really understand why you need a router or similar.
ishAdmin
Match Winner
Posts: 625
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 12:11 am
Contact:

Post by ishAdmin »

I'm keeping this in layman's terms since I'll say the wrong thing if I start discussing classes and subnets. I've never cracked a book on that topic, and only have experience managing little class C subnets.

Here, with a computer connected directly to the dsl modem, we get whatever IP we are assigned (with dhcp, or static (if we pay more)). And it's the same as the internet IP. We are directly connected to the net, each of us with a unique IP.

With some ISP's, we can pay extra for extra internet IP's. If they allow this, then all we need is a hub or switch connect to our dsl modem so we can have more than one computer. Each computer would dhcp it's own internet IP. Or we could even have our own static IP for each computer if we pay extra.

What we typically do is take a router/hub combination and plug that into our dsl modem. It dhcp's our internet IP from the ISP. Then each computer connects in a class c with a local ip of 192.168.1.x or similar.

As an aside, I know one fellow who's entire town is one big subnet (about 25,000). This is near Chicago. He does not get his own unique internet IP. And yet he pays a hell of a lot more for internet service than I do. Despite the subnet IP, he's been DDOS's from other computers in that subnet from enemies who live outside that subnet, but are very clever. Even his modem has been flashed rendering it useless several times. His enemies actually rooted the ISP servers as well. They have 'who cares' attitude that puzzles me quite a bit.
Image
User avatar
n54
MVP
Posts: 1587
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 12:40 pm

Post by n54 »

I'm just a bit curios so I'll reply.
ishAdmin wrote:I'm keeping this in layman's terms since I'll say the wrong thing if I start discussing classes and subnets. I've never cracked a book on that topic, and only have experience managing little class C subnets.
There's not really any big differences except for ease of subnetting. The basics are still the same so I want to try to figure out what you're experiencing.
ishAdmin wrote:Here, with a computer connected directly to the dsl modem, we get whatever IP we are assigned (with dhcp, or static (if we pay more)). And it's the same as the internet IP. We are directly connected to the net, each of us with a unique IP.
It's very similar here: I've got a dsl "modem/router/box" (it neither modulates/demodulates nor routes anything so both those names make me go bonkers lol ;) rather it's just like a powered bridge with NAT).

Anyway the dsl lan output can go either directly to a pc using a normal ethernet cable or one can use a crossover ethernet cable from the dsl to any kind of hub/switch/router as neccesary (one needs to cross the wirepairs inside the cable in relation to the plug which is why the cable is named crossover, this is because the ports on both devices are of the same physical configuration). If you have a router with a cascade port or similar you wont need a crossover cable but those are usually only found on "real" routers who often get daisychained.

My current setup is that the dsl lan side connects to a small powered switch.
ishAdmin wrote:With some ISP's, we can pay extra for extra internet IP's. If they allow this, then all we need is a hub or switch connect to our dsl modem so we can have more than one computer. Each computer would dhcp it's own internet IP. Or we could even have our own static IP for each computer if we pay extra.
Ok here is where I find things get a bit weird. First of all: any ISP is willing to sell you additional ip's but usually with it's own line, and any ISP will charge extra for static addresses. It can definetly be as you say with some ISP's but that rests on one fact alone: wheter or not they are giving you dsl connection devices/"routers" with NetworkAdressTranslation (NAT). If they give out dsl "routers" without it then it surprises me a lot because almost every kind has support for NAT (as well as DHCP) built into them. I've seen *dsl connection devices without NAT but they're extremely rare and afaik they stopped making any without NAT many years ago as it's so cheap to include (close to zero cost) while making it so much more useful.

Anyway the question becomes this: does your dsl "router" have NAT or not? If it has NAT then you can do the same as me and countless others and the ISP can't say anything about it legally: it's none of their business. If you don't have NAT then you need the solution you are using now.

This got a bit long but I just want you to find out for yourself as if you have NAT then it saves you a lot of trouble that's all. DHCP is easy to run as a local service on your main pc so that's not really necessary (but DHCP is just about as usual to have included as NAT). NAT does not require a static ip.

One last question: when you connect to or ping the *dsl box you have from your computer what ip-address do you use? Or in other words: when you configure your tcp/ip what ip do you use as gateway address (this would usually be the *dsl box). Since you use a pc (or another router?) as an internal gateway you have to look there and see which ip it uses for the *dsl device. If that address is 10.0.0.1 or 172.16.0.1 or 192.168.0.1 I can guarantee you that you have NAT on the *dsl box.

Btw here are the ranges reserved for free lan use (within each lan):
A class 10.0.0.0 through 10.255.255.255
B class 172.16.0.0 through 172.31.0.0
C class 192.168.0.0 through 192.168.255.0
ishAdmin
Match Winner
Posts: 625
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 12:11 am
Contact:

Post by ishAdmin »

My dsl modem is completely dumb. It has no router or nat. I have no way of accessing any of it's internal functions. It's got a big reset button, and that's as far as that baby wants me to go! :)

My dsl modem is quite a few years old now, so it's possible they now issue modems with internal routers or nats or something. But the ISP marketing and sales department stresses you may only use it for a single computer, and they will only support a single computer. If you have your own router attached, it's allowed, but they won't support you if you have a problem. (That's officially, unofficially they will help). They are trying to get you to pay them for extra internet IP's.

My own personal setup is with my own router and and a class C lan. But my router is assigned an *internet IP* (which is outside of the A,B,C ranges) via dhcp from the ISP. Whenever I've said internet IP, that's what I've meant. One that is not a local LAN IP.
Image
User avatar
n54
MVP
Posts: 1587
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 12:40 pm

Post by n54 »

ok :)
User avatar
ndogg
On Lightcycle Grid
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:31 pm
Location: Oshkosh, WI
Contact:

Post by ndogg »

This is sort of off topic...this entire thread went off topic. No matter...

Anyway, just to clarify, a hardware router should be faster than any Linux box you set up yourself. A hardware router, while ultimately controlled by software, should have specialized hardware that's specifically tuned to route packets as quickly as possible. It's akin to a graphics card and its GPU. In fact, a hardware router should have a CPU specifically taylored for this task. Of course, the reality is that this isn't always the case. A lot of companies just throw in some generic hardware and slap the label "router" on it. It is cheaper that way, of course.
Post Reply