HTML and CSS

[Lord Pein]

I'm sorry if some of you are offended that I post about these two lanugua... er... uh...

Do you people hate HTML and CSS as much as I do? Web design has come a long way since I fooled around with it back in 8th grade; but man is it annoying when you are just trying to get things (images mainly) to appear where you want them to.

[sinewav]

Yes, sometimes it's a righteous pain in the arse. Sometimes I need to draw the layout on paper and use a highlighter to get my <div>'s straightened out. And even then sometimes it just doesn't flow right.

[Lucifer]

I don't have a lot of problems with it. I usually get a tool to render the html for me (or write it, depends on the project) so that I only have to worry about the css anyway. I make liberal use of templates and stuff, and would rather write PHP or Python code than html, so that's what I do. I write PHP or Python code that generates the html (with simple function calls in early stages, from templates in later stages of development), and then just focus on the css.

(Side note: Even though html and css are not programming languages, PHP and other languages exist to provide programming capabilities to html, so it's still a valid programming topic since you really can't talk about html without mentioning php/javascript/etc.)

[Tank Program]

It can be finicky, but the real joy is coming up with the awesome stuff with minimal code.

[Lacrymosa]

Using a framework can speed up things a lot if you know how to adapt it to your needs. I got used to http://www.960.gs and I like it a lot (although I do not use it for every site).

[chrisd]

I attempt not to that them, since hate leads to the dark side. I agree, though, that they are examples of terrible design.