i don't mind if this one dies
as long as the ladle-5 lives
just realised something about my timing when i start new lines:
i often have to start a new line
because if it continued
it would get to the other edge and wrap
thus appearing to start a new line
when none was intended
and this depends very much on the width of screen available
which means
it depends on the resolution and width of the viewers screen
i suspect with some viewers
there are these apparent new lines
where none is intended
and hence
new lines begin at completely the wrong places
omg
has anyone got anything interesting to add
which is a little deeper than dis/appreciation of style?
regarding meaning
and all that weirdness...?
i am interested
because in my experience
our educational system biases the written form
and there are many intelligent people
who are incredibly intelligent and articulate
and who end up with huge chips on their shoulders
and missing out on opportunities
because there are labelled
eg 'dyslexic'
or just can't put their ideas into writing...
how 2020 talks
-
Lucifer
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Whoopi Goldberg dropped out of school very early because she was dyslexic. She was also inspired to act by Uhura in Star Trek, telling her mom "Come quick, there's a black woman on TV and she's not a maid!" I love Whoopi Goldberg. 
Well, on my screen, fully half the horizontal space is wasted in your posts and I have to lean my head to the side to read it. Thing about the web is that your dream that paper size and content shouldn't matter has been achieved. Too bad your writing style still manages to force a window size.
I am open to new writing styles, but you have to consider what your readers need, and you can't just throw away what makes the current and more traditional writing styles effective. These days, to write on the web, you have to expect any of these things to be true in any combination at any point in time, and your writing still has to be understandable for all of them:
* User can't even see it, uses a screen reader.
* User might have any size window from very small to very large. This causes (as you've mentioned) line breaks that you didn't set. In fact, web writing is all about marking the end of a complete thought and letting the software figure out the best way to display it. The software in turn takes your hints and the user's preferences into account to do so, leaving you with absolutely no control over the end result. If you want absolute control over the end result, don't use the web.
* A sentence represents a complete thought, while a phrase in a sentence only represent a part of that complete thought. Breaking sentences up into phrases on separate lines breaks up the thought, which in turn breaks up the continuity of the whole thing. (Imagine reading a post so littered with parenthetical expressions (for each parenthetical expression, you have to put the previous thought on hold and read a new, related thought) that you can't keep straight what you're reading)
* Users frequently skim the material first, and many will only skim it. They likely have better things to do, so your writing should help them to skim it. If they're interested, they'll read it in detail. If they're not, they'll know by skimming it. They may not need the details and can get what they need from it by skimming. If they can't skim, they won't read it. If google told them the pages has what they need, they'll do a text search instead, and if it doesn't turn anything up, they'll go to one of 300 million other pages google told them about.
* Like it or not, people do have existing reading skills that they apply to your writing. Whenever possible, you want to allow people to use the skills they already possess in the manner that they are accustomed to using it rather than require them to learn a new skill.
* User could also be using a very small device to read it, in which case one complete thought in 2020's post could easily turn into 3 screens of nastily tore up lines. I do a lot of reading on such a small device, and believe me, it's better to read paragraphs with proper linebreaking and good justification, because I can apply all my existing reading skills to it. I do not read any webpages with it, though, because my device doesn't have internet connectivity, but if it did, I'd read web pages with it too.
There's a lot more there. The thing is, the writing methods they teach you in school all evolved over 5 thousand years of written history. While I'm willing to throw off traditions as much as the next guy, I'm not willing to ignore 5000 years of evolution in doing so. The 5 paragraph essay (which is in turn derived from the 5 sentence paragraph) was used by the Romans, and probably used by the greeks, although I've only read Roman works that used it. The only ancient greek writings I've read have been plays that were in iambic pentameter and were originally sung, and I read english translations, of course. So this format is something that has been used in every print form since ancient times and has withstood every one of them.
I'm a big believer in whitespace to break up the text and make it easier to read, don't get me wrong. But I want to be able to follow the thoughts expressed, and having to keep 5-7 lines of text in my head at a time to follow, well, let's just say my short-term memory isn't terribly good. The psychologists told me back in my psychology class that we do chunking as we read, which means you read the first part of a sentence and chunk it into one space in your short-term memory, and as you read you keep adding to it. When you hit a full stop or the end of the line, you have to wrap in your mind just like you have to wrap physicaly with your eyes. Since your short-term memory can only hold 7+-2 items at a time, it's very easy to overload it while reading. That's why the speed readers read phrases instead of words, in fact, and your writing probably does lend itself well to speed reading. Unfortunately, it's a skill I don't have.
Well, on my screen, fully half the horizontal space is wasted in your posts and I have to lean my head to the side to read it. Thing about the web is that your dream that paper size and content shouldn't matter has been achieved. Too bad your writing style still manages to force a window size.
I am open to new writing styles, but you have to consider what your readers need, and you can't just throw away what makes the current and more traditional writing styles effective. These days, to write on the web, you have to expect any of these things to be true in any combination at any point in time, and your writing still has to be understandable for all of them:
* User can't even see it, uses a screen reader.
* User might have any size window from very small to very large. This causes (as you've mentioned) line breaks that you didn't set. In fact, web writing is all about marking the end of a complete thought and letting the software figure out the best way to display it. The software in turn takes your hints and the user's preferences into account to do so, leaving you with absolutely no control over the end result. If you want absolute control over the end result, don't use the web.
* A sentence represents a complete thought, while a phrase in a sentence only represent a part of that complete thought. Breaking sentences up into phrases on separate lines breaks up the thought, which in turn breaks up the continuity of the whole thing. (Imagine reading a post so littered with parenthetical expressions (for each parenthetical expression, you have to put the previous thought on hold and read a new, related thought) that you can't keep straight what you're reading)
* Users frequently skim the material first, and many will only skim it. They likely have better things to do, so your writing should help them to skim it. If they're interested, they'll read it in detail. If they're not, they'll know by skimming it. They may not need the details and can get what they need from it by skimming. If they can't skim, they won't read it. If google told them the pages has what they need, they'll do a text search instead, and if it doesn't turn anything up, they'll go to one of 300 million other pages google told them about.
* Like it or not, people do have existing reading skills that they apply to your writing. Whenever possible, you want to allow people to use the skills they already possess in the manner that they are accustomed to using it rather than require them to learn a new skill.
* User could also be using a very small device to read it, in which case one complete thought in 2020's post could easily turn into 3 screens of nastily tore up lines. I do a lot of reading on such a small device, and believe me, it's better to read paragraphs with proper linebreaking and good justification, because I can apply all my existing reading skills to it. I do not read any webpages with it, though, because my device doesn't have internet connectivity, but if it did, I'd read web pages with it too.
There's a lot more there. The thing is, the writing methods they teach you in school all evolved over 5 thousand years of written history. While I'm willing to throw off traditions as much as the next guy, I'm not willing to ignore 5000 years of evolution in doing so. The 5 paragraph essay (which is in turn derived from the 5 sentence paragraph) was used by the Romans, and probably used by the greeks, although I've only read Roman works that used it. The only ancient greek writings I've read have been plays that were in iambic pentameter and were originally sung, and I read english translations, of course. So this format is something that has been used in every print form since ancient times and has withstood every one of them.
I'm a big believer in whitespace to break up the text and make it easier to read, don't get me wrong. But I want to be able to follow the thoughts expressed, and having to keep 5-7 lines of text in my head at a time to follow, well, let's just say my short-term memory isn't terribly good. The psychologists told me back in my psychology class that we do chunking as we read, which means you read the first part of a sentence and chunk it into one space in your short-term memory, and as you read you keep adding to it. When you hit a full stop or the end of the line, you have to wrap in your mind just like you have to wrap physicaly with your eyes. Since your short-term memory can only hold 7+-2 items at a time, it's very easy to overload it while reading. That's why the speed readers read phrases instead of words, in fact, and your writing probably does lend itself well to speed reading. Unfortunately, it's a skill I don't have.
Be the devil's own, Lucifer's my name.
- Iron Maiden
-
skullflame
- Round Winner
- Posts: 231
- Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:16 pm
- Location: Acctually... in a little dark corner in the back of my mind where my darkest fears encounter me.
i dont think that anyone should really care about there style of writing, as long as the point gets acrost who cares how it is written? take my style for example its somtimes hard to understand and i have a lot of typos b/c i try to type too fast. then take lucifer's or tanks style they are well organized and easy to understand, while somtimes being lengthy for a online forum and most people dont even atempt to read it b/c its too long and they would rather wast there time in some other way rather then having an intelegent conversation.
but alas this is just the view of a 15year old boy from ohio so what do i know? lol
but alas this is just the view of a 15year old boy from ohio so what do i know? lol
I have to be brutally honest. I can't stand the way 2020 posts.
It's just annoying to me having to shift my eyes constantly, it's like I'm having a seizure.
2020, when I read your post that was normal, you looked about 3x more intelligent.
It's just annoying to me having to shift my eyes constantly, it's like I'm having a seizure.
2020, when I read your post that was normal, you looked about 3x more intelligent.
America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed.
-Eleanor Roosevelt, 1936
-Eleanor Roosevelt, 1936
To me, 20's "style" of writing comes across as a bunch of disjointed thoughts that are difficult to follow and make my brain hurt, similar to the lolz and the AOL-speak of some of the kids around here.
Perhaps he's actually quite eloquent in spoken word, but here it looks like a constant haze of drunken babble. To the point where I've started skipping over his posts entirely and moving on to what the next person has to say.
Perhaps he's actually quite eloquent in spoken word, but here it looks like a constant haze of drunken babble. To the point where I've started skipping over his posts entirely and moving on to what the next person has to say.
-
2020
- Outside Corner Grinder
- Posts: 1322
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 9:21 pm
- Location: the present, finally
kyle:
best attempt yet
to all:
Very interesting, don't you think? Some people think it reads smoothly, others find it disjointed. Surely this means it is something to do with the way we are reading it?
My basic theory, sorry to reiterate, is that it depends on whether the reader is on the same line of thought. If they haven't got the basic idea, then they can't really understand why there are line jumps; whereas, if they do get the idea, then the new lines are natural.
The only way to test this, as an experiment, is if other people try it, and we as readers can evaluate our reading. So here's a challenge. Write something INTERESTING, not just any old rubbish, and try to contain some kind of idea or thought, something you are interested in, starting a new line whenever you feel a 'gap', like a comma i suppose, and miss a line whenever there is a reasonable change, probably equivalent to a full stop. And then we can read, and we can evaluate whether it makes sense. For those who don't like my style, this would give me a taste of my own medicine -- but don't cheat and try to make it difficult for us! Be genuine, write honestly, and let's see how this experiment goes.
You get what I am saying?
and for those of you who find this style easy to read
will you find other people's attempts similarly easy?
and through this
we will determine whether it is merely a shallow style
(
thirding my intelligence
as it were
)
or whether it actually betrays our reading judgement...
best attempt yet
to all:
Very interesting, don't you think? Some people think it reads smoothly, others find it disjointed. Surely this means it is something to do with the way we are reading it?
My basic theory, sorry to reiterate, is that it depends on whether the reader is on the same line of thought. If they haven't got the basic idea, then they can't really understand why there are line jumps; whereas, if they do get the idea, then the new lines are natural.
The only way to test this, as an experiment, is if other people try it, and we as readers can evaluate our reading. So here's a challenge. Write something INTERESTING, not just any old rubbish, and try to contain some kind of idea or thought, something you are interested in, starting a new line whenever you feel a 'gap', like a comma i suppose, and miss a line whenever there is a reasonable change, probably equivalent to a full stop. And then we can read, and we can evaluate whether it makes sense. For those who don't like my style, this would give me a taste of my own medicine -- but don't cheat and try to make it difficult for us! Be genuine, write honestly, and let's see how this experiment goes.
You get what I am saying?
and for those of you who find this style easy to read
will you find other people's attempts similarly easy?
and through this
we will determine whether it is merely a shallow style
(
thirding my intelligence
as it were
)
or whether it actually betrays our reading judgement...
hold the line
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skullflame
- Round Winner
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kyle
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now all you have to do is implement it on random forums
heh the solution proposed it that 2020's style of talk is better to comprehend
still it would be voluntary response but it could work if people were blinded from this experiment were the responders
this closer to the was you talk 2020
cause this is how i talk
anything wrong with this way anyone??
heh the solution proposed it that 2020's style of talk is better to comprehend
still it would be voluntary response but it could work if people were blinded from this experiment were the responders
this closer to the was you talk 2020
cause this is how i talk
anything wrong with this way anyone??
I think that the way 2020 writes is the same way people who use ...'s alot write, except more annoying. At least with people who talk like this... the train of thought... and the way you read... it is the same... it stays in the same format as most people write... but the ...'s are present.. basically whenever the typer would take a breath... or pause when talking. I understand 2020's "style"... I just find it annoying to switch lines every 4-5 words. What I can't understand... is the breaks after )'s.
(
like this
)
I just dont get that.
(
like this
)
I just dont get that.
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