Food & Animals

[Misery]

I like both.... but....

[Slov]

As an apprentice meatcutter, I believe Light is one of the people that calls me at work to tell me I'm a terrible person.

lmao does that really happen?

[sinewav]

I think I was under the impression you were reassuring him that the people calling him up are twits...

Well kind of. It is rather silly to complain to a butcher about the ethical treatment of animals. He gets them after they are dead.

[Phytotron]

Damn, sinewav, I have to say you were pretty much a reactionary dick in this thread. And your posts are full of falsehoods and illogical, in same cases completely irrelevant, arguments (and yes, that goes for the link too). Not sure whether I want to spend the time and energy rebutting it all point-by-point, but for crissakes that was a poor showing. Very disappointing.

[sinewav]

Not sure whether I want to spend the time and energy rebutting it all point-by-point, but for crissakes that was a poor showing.

Give it your best shot. Are you in the vegan cult too?

[Light]

Give it your best shot. Are you in the vegan cult too?

Deciding to attempt avoiding what you can in terms of enslaving, raping, torturing and murdering animals throws you into a "cult"? Or is it wrong to have compassion for another species?

[Phytotron]

Give it your best shot. Are you in the vegan cult too?

[sinewav]

Or is it wrong to have compassion for another species?

Be more dramatic, please. It's already been established that I do not endorse cruelty to animals. I don't even kill bugs.

[Phytotron]

If you consume animals, you implicitly endorse cruelty to animals. There's really no escaping it. And what's more galling is to attempt to justify it with the sort of nonsense you and others have asserted in this thread (not to mention the unprovoked attacks), all in a lazy and vain attempt to rationalize an addiction to fleeting indulgences of gluttony.

Even in this discussion with Peter Singer, Richard Dawkins acknowledges there's no reasoned or moral excuse for animal consumption or husbandry—and many, many reasons to abandon it—yet at least outright admits he'll continue to do it "just because I just enjoy it." Still a cowardly position to take, but at least he owns up to it.

[sinewav]

If you consume animals, you implicitly endorse cruelty to animals.

Great. And by using a computer and electricity you implicitly endorse slave labor and global warming. I know your heightened sense of morality lets you sleep well at night thinking you're a good boy, but you sound absurd and shockingly swayed by emotion instead of reason. Please go back to showing up every few months to post some reaction gifs and telling us how much the community sucks while patting yourself on the back for your prophetic visions of Armagetron's future. Or better yet, don't post at all.

[Phytotron]

Yeaaaah. Reactionary.

you sound absurd and shockingly swayed by emotion instead of reason.

Right back atcha, buddy!

And by using a computer and electricity you implicitly endorse slave labor and global warming.

Not a reasonable comparison, on several levels actually, and if you'd put away your emotion for a minute, I think you could at least partially work out why.

Please go back to showing up every few months to post some reaction gifs and telling us how much the community sucks

I mean, I've been doing these periodic check-ins for the last few years and you've never mentioned having any problem with it. I've been talking about the community being overrun with garbage for damn near a decade and you never objected. And you've known I'm vegan for at least a few years as well, never said a thing in opposition. I don't know what your deal is now with this lashing out.

[Word]

I don't like where this is going, so here are my 2 cents.

Not a reasonable comparison, on several levels actually, and if you'd put away your emotion for a minute, I think you could at least partially work out why.

As a meat eater, I thought that was a very appropriate comparison. You can't really exist in a first world country and have a good living standard without indirectly benefitting from and contributing to poverty and death elsewhere. You can have a soft spot for animals which are bred for that one purpose, there's nothing wrong with that, but what about all the other stuff your daily routine has minimal impact on (granted, that impact grows the more people participate, but that's not the point of sine's comparison)? In a discussion about social security, I once heard someone say that the ideal employee drops dead the moment he goes into retirement (and as far as I know about evolution, male beings used to die as soon as they lost their fertility). What I want to say is, one can very easily accuse vegans of hypocrisy with good reason, and the only thing that really strengthens your point is that there are more like-minded people who also have a soft spot for animals and thanks to that you can really see statistical results of your lifestyle. Still, the consumption of any other product/medicine/piece of clothing you can buy in a supermarket doesn't necessarily have less drastic consequences in another time and place, and not just for the animals and humans, but their descendents as well. And I think personal decisions by single individuals won't really solve long-term problems of an entire world, neither does arguing whether I am on morally higher ground than my neighbour because I avoid one or two of the things that he enjoys while I myself probably engage in other activities/consume other products that aren't much better if one looks at the whole picture.
Uh, did that make as much sense as I hope?

I mean, I've been doing these periodic check-ins for the last few years and you've never mentioned having any problem with it. I've been talking about the community being overrun with garbage for damn near a decade and you never objected. And you've known I'm vegan for at least a few years as well, never said a thing in opposition. I don't know what your deal is now with this lashing out.

While you were absent, it were mostly Liz and her friends/the DDoS guys who claimed the game is dead, I guess that's why people are tired of reading stuff like that. And remarks like yours seem particularly disrespectful when they're directed at people like sinewav or Z-Man, since they are the people who keep the Ladle alive (I know you never cared much about that either, but perhaps it helps if you put yourself in his shoes here).

[Light]

If you consume animals, you implicitly endorse cruelty to animals.

Great. And by using a computer and electricity you implicitly endorse slave labor and global warming. I know your heightened sense of morality lets you sleep well at night thinking you're a good boy, but you sound absurd and shockingly swayed by emotion instead of reason. Please go back to showing up every few months to post some reaction gifs and telling us how much the community sucks while patting yourself on the back for your prophetic visions of Armagetron's future. Or better yet, don't post at all.

He's not wrong. By purchasing and consuming meat, you are helping create a demand for the slaughter of other animals. There's really no need for personal attacks.

As a meat eater, I thought that was a very appropriate comparison. You can't really exist in a first world country and have a good living standard without indirectly benefitting from and contributing to poverty and death elsewhere. You can have a soft spot for animals which are bred for that one purpose, there's nothing wrong with that, but what about all the other stuff your daily routine has minimal impact on (granted, that impact grows the more people participate, but that's not the point of sine's comparison)? In a discussion about social security, I once heard someone say that the ideal employee drops dead the moment he goes into retirement (and as far as I know about evolution, male beings used to die as soon as they lost their fertility). What I want to say is, one can very easily accuse vegans of hypocrisy with good reason, and the only thing that really strengthens your point is that there are more like-minded people who also have a soft spot for animals and thanks to that you can really see statistical results of your lifestyle. Still, the consumption of any other product/medicine/piece of clothing you can buy in a supermarket doesn't necessarily have less drastic consequences in another time and place, and not just for the animals and humans, but their descendents as well. And I think personal decisions by single individuals won't really solve long-term problems of an entire world, neither does arguing whether I am on morally higher ground than my neighbour because I avoid one or two of the things that he enjoys while I myself probably engage in other activities/consume other products that aren't much better if one looks at the whole picture.
Uh, did that make as much sense as I hope?

If you want that comparison to equal out, we would have to enslave and slaughter the world's population over 20 times a year. It's not even close to equal, and if it was done to your own species you'd be furious as would the rest of the world. The point is to minimize the damage done to others. We might not reach perfection, but if that's a reason to continue supporting it, you've got terrible reasoning.

You've also failed to point out where vegans are hypocritical.

the only thing that really strengthens your point is that there are more like-minded people who also have a soft spot for animals and thanks to that you can really see statistical results of your lifestyle.

That did nothing to prove your point. In fact, it appears to point in the opposite direction. The whole point is to make a difference, and no, one person isn't going to do it, but everyone ignoring it would do nothing. So, it's actually a really good thing that enough people are coming along to make a noticeable difference.

Just to touch on one of your other comments. Many (most that I've come in contact with) ethical vegans also avoid animal products outside of food. Yes, that involves shampoos, makeups, clothing, etc. It has also made a dent in those areas, but they're not nearly as important to me as the food due to the quantity of animals harmed for it.

[Lucifer]

If you consume animals, you implicitly endorse cruelty to animals.

Great. And by using a computer and electricity you implicitly endorse slave labor and global warming.

He's not wrong. By purchasing and consuming meat, you are helping create a demand for the slaughter of other animals. There's really no need for personal attacks.

You take the basic position that slaughtering animals is inherently unethical and then tell us we're all endorsing cruelty and then say there's no need for personal attacks?

Put this in your pipe and smoke it: it's not unethical to slaughter animals. In fact, beef in particular is often raised on lands that aren't suitable for other industries, so it can be but not necessarily always is more efficient to go ahead and raise beef as food in those areas.

I find Word's comparison quite apt. Many of the components in your computer and the infrastructure you used to write your post were manufactured in China under labor laws that amount slavery by children. China's now swimming in pollution and much of the population there is struggling. They're also the biggest contributor next to the US in greenhouse gases. So, slavery and global warming. You two write your posts accusing us of being unethical and endorsing cruelty to animals on the backs of children and the entire planet's future.

I think the point to really take away from this is that you can't live in absolutes. When we were in DBT (google that if you want to know more), we were taught to take a middle path and not live in absolutes. That can put us in some morally ambiguous situations, but it prevents us from painting ourselves into a corner with no way out and resorting to self-harm/suicide.

If you want that comparison to equal out, we would have to enslave and slaughter the world's population over 20 times a year. It's not even close to equal, and if it was done to your own species you'd be furious as would the rest of the world. The point is to minimize the damage done to others. We might not reach perfection, but if that's a reason to continue supporting it, you've got terrible reasoning.

Um, it is happening to our own species. Between blood diamonds, child labor throughout Africa, Asia, and the Middle East, the senseless slaughter of civilians in Iraq (for oil, of course), etc, it is happening to our own species.

You've also failed to point out where vegans are hypocritical.

Do you drive a car? Do you ride public transportation? Do you use electricity? Are you aware of the horrible price we're going to pay for all of this?

There's absolutely no way you can point to a product in your home that wasn't produced at the price of cruelty being inflicted somewhere in the world. I get it that vegans don't use animal products, don't wear leather, use products tested on animals, etc. Instead, of course, those products get tested on people, sometimes without their consent. That's what the "Not tested on animals" label means. But in addition to that, can you guarantee that no slave labor was used to make something in your home? I doubt you can. So cool it with the high horse and realize the world is more morally ambiguous than you present.

[Word]

I actually wrote a much longer reply before Lucifer's post, but the site somehow crashed and I had to write everything again. I probably forgot a thing or two now.

If you want that comparison to equal out, we would have to enslave and slaughter the world's population over 20 times a year. It's not even close to equal, and if it was done to your own species you'd be furious as would the rest of the world. The point is to minimize the damage done to others. We might not reach perfection, but if that's a reason to continue supporting it, you've got terrible reasoning.

Yeah, you missed the point of sinewavs comparison. Just because certain threats and challenges seem more abstract and remote, your cause isn't necessarily more honorable. I'd be hypocritical if I tell others to stop doing what they enjoy and consuming what they need, even though I *am* furious about their way of living as much as about my own - as consumers living in capitalist countries we can make many choices, but none of these choices are created out of nowhere. That said, it's actually an achievement that we have a certain freedom to make these individual choices and they help social peace. Sinewav brought up climate change. Climate change, planned obsolescence and overpopulation endanger the entire planet, not just a high number of animals or humans, and the big paradox is that we probably end up burning more resources to develop technologies that can fight it, and your personal choices, while honorable, won't really have an impact unless you are part of a larger movement that is really dedicated, and even then that impact is small.

That did nothing to prove your point. In fact, it appears to point in the opposite direction. The whole point is to make a difference, and no, one person isn't going to do it, but everyone ignoring it would do nothing. So, it's actually a really good thing that enough people are coming along to make a noticeable difference.

As you noticed I can empathize and agree with that standpoint, but then you disregard the reason I mentioned it in the first place: I don't think it's enough, and I think the time and money vegetarians spend to promote their way of living should rather be invested into political/corporate lobbyism or technological efforts that solve these problems ideally once and for all. But that's obviously my personal opinion.

Just to touch on one of your other comments. Many (most that I've come in contact with) ethical vegans also avoid animal products outside of food. Yes, that involves shampoos, makeups, clothing, etc. It has also made a dent in those areas, but they're not nearly as important to me as the food due to the quantity of animals harmed for it.

Again, I also can't stand those PETA videos of innocent cows going through the meatgrinder. But I'm convinced that in every time and place, you have to adapt to the society around you and show a certain level of conformity in order to really change things from within. You hinted at it yourself, even if your friends spend their whole lives promoting an alternative way of living they won't really have significant success in the long run, or worse, they waste their time saving a couple cows when they should try to save the world as a whole. But who am I to judge? I can understand why people are more fond of cows than something abstract and remote that threatens everything.
Different debate, but basically the same situation insofar as eco-activists claim they are on the right side but completely misjudge the consequences of their actions:

»Two years ago anti-GMO activists destroyed a field trial of the rice in the Philippines. Last year they filed a petition to block all field tests and feeding studies. Greenpeace boasted, "After more than 10 years of research ‘Golden’ Rice is nowhere near its promise to address Vitamin A Deficiency." And a million more kids are dead.«

The reason many people react so harshly towards vegans is that they tend to display that same moral tunnel vision.