fudx@lycos [SPLIT]

[sinewav]

Apples and Oranges.

How?

You can't really compare Windows as an OS to OSS software as a philosophy, because that's really what it is. Anecdote: Last month I installed Ubuntu Server 10.10 on a machine because I needed to run Samba 3.5. After three hours of compile errors I gave up on Samba. Both the software and server are only a couple years old. That's absolutely terrible legacy support. Open Source projects routinely break older versions. The reason why I was attempting to use older versions of this stuff was because the newer version of Samba broke other software I had. So much for newer is better.

And don't get me started on proprietary formats. OSS is just as guilty as anyone when it comes to this shit. Just in music software alone I have the following:

Audacity: *.aup --> only used by Audacity.
Muse Sequencer: *.med --> Only used by Muse
Linux Multimedia Studio: *.mmp --> Guess who can open this file?
...on and on and on.

I do make a habit of exporting copies of everything I can in non-propitiatory formats, but I have to do this equally in Linux and Windows ...and some of these OSS files break between versions! It f'king bullshit man. No better than Windows in that area, in fact, worse.

Installing multiple versions of python is trivial on any decent open source OS.

Pffft! Yeah, and setting up new environmental variables and whatnot is just sooooo easy for the average user. Give me a break. Any why do we need to install different versions again? Oh wait, lack of backwards compatibility WHICH IS THE WHOLE POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE.

...the current state of open source meets all of my computing needs, including accessing old code and data. Hopefully, in a few years, it will meet all of your needs too.

Consider yourself lucky. There is little chance the fragmented state of Linux will meet all my needs in the near or far future. Linux has good business tools and you can surf the web with it, and even do some art things, but video is clumsy at best and audio is a complete disaster (I'm talking about high-end audio here, stuff with professional workflows, not Ardour, which is very limited in scope and ability).

It would be nice to make a clean break from Windows, but the fact is Microsoft still dominates in many areas.

[Ratchet]

I think I agree with both of you, in some respects.

I definitely think Linux is "cool" at best, and certainly a good option if you're looking to develop programs. It's very versatile in that regard.

However, for just about everything else that I may use a computer for, Linux just doesn't suffice. I often find myself spending more time trying to fix something that should already be working than doing things that I intended to do while on the computer. That's not good.

Also, tron is shit for me on Linux (and has been regardless of the machine). My desktop which gets into the 3000FPS on Windows can't even make tron playable. That's probably the main reason I've never given it much of a chance.

Regarding Windows 8: I don't really care to get into a big debate about it but I think a lot of people just hate change. I got a computer with Windows 8 on it and there is literally nothing that I can complain about. Don't have a start button? Shut up and download 8.1. Bam, start button. Similarly, I have Windows 7 on this laptop and there's nothing for me to complain about, whatsoever. Most of the complaints I've heard are butthurt people who can't stand to spend five minutes learning something new.

[sinewav]

Most of the complaints I've heard are butthurt people who can't stand to spend five minutes learning something new.

So, are literally millions of users who HATE Win8 just butt-hurt, or was this a colossal mistake by Microsoft? Let me mention one more time that there are still more people currently using XP than Win8 -- XP, which is 15 years old, expired, and long replaced by Win7. If Win8 didn't have tremendous flaws, why no upgrades from Win7 (which Microsoft no longer sells)? I think saying people are "butt-hurt" reveals a very immature perspective on the subject. Computers are tools. We use them to do work and be productive. If the tool changes and decreases your productivity is that a good tool or a bad one? Again, I've used every version of Windows and Win8 is by far the worst. It's in a compete class of it's own. Keep in mind you are talking to someone who also uses Mac and several variants of Linux DE. Would I qualify as someone who doesn't want to learn something new? I get the feeling that people who think the changes in Win8 are "no big deal" are not power users who actually have to be productive with it.

Don't have a start button? Shut up and download 8.1. Bam, start button.

This actually proves my point. The release of 8.1 is basically damage control for Microsoft's blunder. The upgrade still falls flat.

Similarly, I have Windows 7 on this laptop and there's nothing for me to complain about, whatsoever.

Well duh, that version is pretty solid. It's ugly for sure and takes a bit of tweaking, but it's definitely giving XP a run for the money.

[Monkey]

Pffft! Yeah, and setting up new environmental variables and whatnot is just sooooo easy for the average user.

I'm not talking about the average user, I'm talking about people who are fairly computer savvy such as you or me. It will be a long time before the average user can use open source software for all of their needs.

Linux...bad

I agree. I need to state that I hate Linux; Linux is a mess and it's not really of high quality. I used it as my primary operating system for eight years (even more as my secondary operating system) and I was glad to finally be rid of it. I'll never use it again by choice.

OSS...proprietory formats...ubuntu...samba...etc...bad...

I agree. I also need to state that there is more bad open source software than good open source software. This is to be expected because anyone who wants to can make open source software and put it out there for people to use. There are people making really high quality open source software it's just that there is less of them so it's taking them longer to do it. Eventually we will have open source software in all genres that is better than the proprietory equivalents. GNU software needs a special mention here because it's so bad yet it has filled large gaps in the open source software world. Luckily, it's slowly being replaced.

It would be nice to make a clean break from Windows, but the fact is Microsoft still dominates in many areas.

Things are changing for the better in the open source world. One day you will be able to use open source for all of your needs; it's a case of when, not if.

[Lucifer]

Y'all keep in mind that virtualization has changed the playing field dramatically. A lot of microsoft's current backwards compatibility is done through virtualization.

For OSS, a "maintained" program is simply one that can be compiled with recent compilers. That's the gold standard for being able to pick something up from the 90s and be able to run it. You're still expected to build it first. If the program is no longer maintained, then hopefully you migrated already. I guess it depends on how often you need to access particular data.

As to proprietary file formats, Sinewav, you haven't mentioned even one. Proprietary means you can't read it without signing an NDA, paying a license fee, and then being given code that can read it. Every format you listed is easily read. Some of it isn't as well-documented as others, but there's a reason individual projects create their own file formats: there isn't one available that does what they need. Audacity can't export to Ardour (not easily, anyway) because Ardour uses edit decision lists, where audacity applies the effect and pushes the previous sound chunks back. Both have unlimited undo, but neither can export to each other's formats, and there's no "open" format available that suits the needs of both projects.

Now, if the armagetron resource system ever gets developed to where I'd like it to be, I'd try to make a standard out of it.

[Ratchet]

So, are literally millions of users who HATE Win8 just butt-hurt, or was this a colossal mistake by Microsoft? Let me mention one more time that there are still more people currently using XP than Win8 -- XP, which is 15 years old, expired, and long replaced by Win7. If Win8 didn't have tremendous flaws, why no upgrades from Win7 (which Microsoft no longer sells)? I think saying people are "butt-hurt" reveals a very immature perspective on the subject. Computers are tools. We use them to do work and be productive. If the tool changes and decreases your productivity is that a good tool or a bad one? Again, I've used every version of Windows and Win8 is by far the worst. It's in a compete class of it's own. Keep in mind you are talking to someone who also uses Mac and several variants of Linux DE. Would I qualify as someone who doesn't want to learn something new? I get the feeling that people who think the changes in Win8 are "no big deal" are not power users who actually have to be productive with it.

You keep indicating that Windows 8 has, apparently drastically, decreased the amount of productivity of the end user. You haven't, however, given a single example of how. I challenge you to do that. Give me one irrefutable way that Windows XP (or even Windows 7) is superior to Windows 8 in terms of productivity.

Also, I think it depends on what you perceive a "power user" as. Most of my computing these days is done with programs like AutoCAD, Solidworks, Vivado, Xilinx ISE, and various programs like that which deal with my curriculum and line of work. And, of course, Microsoft Office. None of the mentioned programs have any differences between Windows 7 and 8.

Most companies still use Windows 7 (I don't know of any that use XP) because it's not worth the hassle of upgrading to Windows 8. All programs that they use are completely compatible and still maintained for Windows 7 so it doesn't really make sense to change anything. Which, of course, I agree with.

This actually proves my point. The release of 8.1 is basically damage control for Microsoft's blunder. The upgrade still falls flat.

That, or it proves that the "entitlement generation" is finally becoming of age to use computers for something besides Club Penguin and know that they can have whatever they want if they cry enough about it.

Well duh, that version is pretty solid. It's ugly for sure and takes a bit of tweaking, but it's definitely giving XP a run for the money.

The most noteworthy difference (that most users can identify) between Windows 7 and 8 is the Metro/Start screen (which you can almost 100% ignore if you don't like).

[sinewav]

You keep indicating that Windows 8 has, apparently drastically, decreased the amount of productivity of the end user. You haven't, however, given a single example of how. I challenge you to do that. Give me one irrefutable way that Windows XP (or even Windows 7) is superior to Windows 8 in terms of productivity.

Easy. Out-of-box functionality. Yes, you can customize a Windows 8 workstation to behave just like Win7 or even XP, but that's not what you get when you first sit down at one. Jesus Christ, Win8 didn't even have a start button when it came out. You don't think that's a problem for a generation of users who have relied on it for 20 years? Even hitting the super-key gives you the Metro screen, which behaves completely different than all previous versions of Windows. If you don't think having to drastically customize your computing environment to regain years worth of functionality is a loss in productivity, then I guess you should be glad it's not your job to make decisions about that because you would be fired immediately.

Also, I think it depends on what you perceive a "power user" as. Most of my computing these days is done with programs like AutoCAD, Solidworks, Vivado, Xilinx ISE, and various programs like that which deal with my curriculum and line of work. And, of course, Microsoft Office. None of the mentioned programs have any differences between Windows 7 and 8.

Lucky you. I'm a big keyboard user. In previous versions I was able to launch programs quickly and easily by using letter combos after pressing the super-key. That's gone now. Win7 allows you to launch pinned apps with super-key+number combos. That's also gone in Win8 until you replace out-of-box functionality. Again, all this adds up to loss of productivity.

Most companies still use Windows 7 (I don't know of any that use XP) because it's not worth the hassle of upgrading to Windows 8.

So upgrading to super awesome Windows 8 is a hassle now? Also, I was at Guitar Center today and got a kick out of their POS system. It's some DOS-like program running in a VM inside XP. Crazy stuff. Anyone here work at GC who can tell me what that is?

That, or it proves that the "entitlement generation" is finally becoming of age to use computers for something besides Club Penguin and know that they can have whatever they want if they cry enough about it.

I have no idea what you are saying here. WTF if Club Penguin? Who is entitled? What generation do you think I am?

Had to use Win8 again today. Still hated it. Meanwhile, I'm getting pretty excited about Win10 and might leave Linux for it.

[Ratchet]

You keep indicating that Windows 8 has, apparently drastically, decreased the amount of productivity of the end user. You haven't, however, given a single example of how. I challenge you to do that. Give me one irrefutable way that Windows XP (or even Windows 7) is superior to Windows 8 in terms of productivity.

Easy. Out-of-box functionality. Yes, you can customize a Windows 8 workstation to behave just like Win7 or even XP, but that's not what you get when you first sit down at one. Jesus Christ, Win8 didn't even have a start button when it came out. You don't think that's a problem for a generation of users who have relied on it for 20 years? Even hitting the super-key gives you the Metro screen, which behaves completely different than all previous versions of Windows. If you don't think having to drastically customize your computing environment to regain years worth of functionality is a loss in productivity, then I guess you should be glad it's not your job to make decisions about that because you would be fired immediately.

Also, I think it depends on what you perceive a "power user" as. Most of my computing these days is done with programs like AutoCAD, Solidworks, Vivado, Xilinx ISE, and various programs like that which deal with my curriculum and line of work. And, of course, Microsoft Office. None of the mentioned programs have any differences between Windows 7 and 8.

Lucky you. I'm a big keyboard user. In previous versions I was able to launch programs quickly and easily by using letter combos after pressing the super-key. That's gone now. Win7 allows you to launch pinned apps with super-key+number combos. That's also gone in Win8 until you replace out-of-box functionality. Again, all this adds up to loss of productivity.

It seems that your largest gripe is that your keyboard functionality changes with each version of Windows... I think the majority of users navigate the interface with the mouse. I've never had to "drastically customize my computing environment" to make my mouse click different areas of the screen than they did before.

The extent of opening programs with my keyboard, for me, is hitting the windows key and starting to type the name of the program. Fortunately, it functions the same in Windows 8 (albeit a different graphical result). If it didn't, I'd still survive.

There's always the argument that you could, well.... learn different keyboard shortcuts.

Most companies still use Windows 7 (I don't know of any that use XP) because it's not worth the hassle of upgrading to Windows 8.

So upgrading to super awesome Windows 8 is a hassle now? Also, I was at Guitar Center today and got a kick out of their POS system. It's some DOS-like program running in a VM inside XP. Crazy stuff. Anyone here work at GC who can tell me what that is?

That, or it proves that the "entitlement generation" is finally becoming of age to use computers for something besides Club Penguin and know that they can have whatever they want if they cry enough about it.

I have no idea what you are saying here. WTF if Club Penguin? Who is entitled? What generation do you think I am?

Had to use Win8 again today. Still hated it. Meanwhile, I'm getting pretty excited about Win10 and might leave Linux for it.

I'm not proclaiming that Windows 8 is super awesome. I don't even really prefer it over Windows 7, nor do I prefer Windows 7 over Windows 8. Neither of them offers me something the other doesn't. Perhaps dev/null/ hit the nail when he said backwards compatibility of Microsoft rocks. I'm not trying to convince you to like Windows 8, I'm trying to lessen the population of people who just go "uhhh, ____ sucks cuz yeah, it sucks."

In terms of upgrading 10-100 office computers, yes I'd say an OS upgrade is a hassle. That's largely why people stayed on XP forever. When they bought their computers, they came with XP. Same idea. Most computers these days came with Windows 7 and there's no sense in upgrading because of the lack of new features in Windows 8.

Club Penguin
Entitlement Generation I
Entitlement Generation II

That last bit was more for the general population of users that now populate the internet. Not you, directly.

[sinewav]

It seems that your largest gripe is that your keyboard functionality changes with each version of Windows... I think the majority of users navigate the interface with the mouse....There's always the argument that you could, well.... learn different keyboard shortcuts.

If most users are navigating with a mouse then that is even worse. How good is it to remove the Start button, the primary thing a Windows user clicks on? And what about all the hidden stuff that only comes to the surface with unintuitive mouse "gestures?" Like I said, it's my keyboard expertise that allows me to use Windows 8 at a functional level. Which brings me to my last point on this matter. The keyboard shortcuts shouldn't change between versions, and they never did. Each new version of Windows added new keyboard functionality without breaking previous shortcuts. That's the key to proper UI/UX design. This is a huge deal and probably the biggest factor in the dismal uptake of Win8.

Fun fact: I'm taking an IT course right now and most of the Windows 8 users have migrated to Linux since starting the class.

[/dev/null]

win 8 was a trainwreck, if you think it isnt, you know jack shit about windows.
Why do you think the next version is pretending that shit is vista or winme, and just pretending it didnt happen.

[Ratchet]

Fun fact: I'm taking an IT course right now and most of the Windows 8 users have migrated to Linux since starting the class.

I'd be more surprised if you said the opposite Linux is well known for its server security, hence most everything related to ArmagetronAd runs on Linux servers. Windows is also a hell of a lot more annoying to try and set up a server on. I was under the assumption that most IT professors preached in favor of Linux over Windows. When a buddy of mine was taking IT classes, he switched to Linux as well.

win 8 was a trainwreck, if you think it isnt, you know jack shit about windows.
Why do you think the next version is pretending that shit is vista or winme, and just pretending it didnt happen.

And Barack Obama is the best thing to happen to America in the last 10 years.

[/dev/null]

Fun fact: I'm taking an IT course right now and most of the Windows 8 users have migrated to Linux since starting the class.

I'd be more surprised if you said the opposite Linux is well known for its server security, hence most everything related to ArmagetronAd runs on Linux servers. Windows is also a hell of a lot more annoying to try and set up a server on. I was under the assumption that most IT professors preached in favor of Linux over Windows. When a buddy of mine was taking IT classes, he switched to Linux as well.

win 8 was a trainwreck, if you think it isnt, you know jack shit about windows.
Why do you think the next version is pretending that shit is vista or winme, and just pretending it didnt happen.

And Barack Obama is the best thing to happen to America in the last 10 years.

Do you remember baby bush's run at it?